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54 minutes ago, Huddersfield said:

It's just a turn of phrase really - I was trying to avoid 'designed' to 🙂

I understand fasting isn't about not eating per se...I think I just intuitively think that going for extended periods without food isn't in our bodies' best interests. I can accept that it might be a better alternative than shoving crap down us though!

I am probably skewed a bit by the fact my diet is all over the place anyway at the moment on the back of having had a lifetime of being a greedy b@@tard.

I notice that you didn't answer my second question.;)

Our eating habits have changed immensely over the past few centuries. Perhaps the biggest change has happened over the past 5 or 6 decades with our hugely increased consumption of added sugar. And before Mr Wind pops up again, I know some people have managed to survive very well eating nothing but honey for millennia, but they are the exception and deserve studies of their own. 

That is a tiny tiny fraction of time on the evolutionary scale.

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1 hour ago, Huddersfield said:

It's just a turn of phrase really - I was trying to avoid 'designed' to 🙂

I understand fasting isn't about not eating per se...I think I just intuitively think that going for extended periods without food isn't in our bodies' best interests. I can accept that it might be a better alternative than shoving crap down us though!

I am probably skewed a bit by the fact my diet is all over the place anyway at the moment on the back of having had a lifetime of being a greedy b@@tard.

I'm with Huddersfield on this. It sounds crazy to deliberately deprive yourself of food for an extended period. And anti-evolutionary, in the sense we wouldn't be here, like this, today if we did such crazy shit in the past.

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6 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I’d say eating several times a day is less natural than fasting for a period of time. 

On the contrary, eating several times a day is more 'natural' than, not just fasting, but eating three big set meals a day. Breakfast, lunch (dinner), tea (dinner) - that whole can of worms again! - is a relatively recent thing and not necessarily in our best interests. Eating five or six smaller and healthier portions is certainly my ideal and makes me my healthiest.

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12 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I notice that you didn't answer my second question.;)

Our eating habits have changed immensely over the past few centuries. Perhaps the biggest change has happened over the past 5 or 6 decades with our hugely increased consumption of added sugar. And before Mr Wind pops up again, I know some people have managed to survive very well eating nothing but honey for millennia, but they are the exception and deserve studies of their own. 

That is a tiny tiny fraction of time on the evolutionary scale.

I watched snippets of it & have put it on my ‘to do’ list!

I’m sort of interested in a way but have a strange set of health problems that have had a strange effect on my weight, diet & tastes. I actually think I’d cope better with it now than I might have done a couple of years back. Back then, I couldn’t manage any period of time without food without feeling very nauseous & faint. Probably greed, but that’s how it was. I used to have a chronic sweet tooth-full-blown chocoholic. I don’t even really like the stuff that much now! So although I think I could probably go longer periods without food, I feel that’s just not a good thing to do  

I’m also being told by consultants & researchers to try & get a decent intake of dairy & red meat which I suppose runs contrary to modern thinking (but perhaps not evolution!). 

I guess the evolution argument is a perspective one really...did we evolve to adapt to not always having food or have we bucked it by ‘suddenly’ having food? 

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Haven't watched the video yet so probably not best placed to make judgement but I would agree with Duncan that small amounts regularly seems most sensible. Could perhaps see the merits of fasting for 2 or 3 days to clear you out but 10-21 seems extreme to me. 

I of course do none of this, eating 3 meals a day the last one at 8.30pm, so hardly a cheerleader for healthy living.

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15 minutes ago, duncan II said:

On the contrary, eating several times a day is more 'natural' than, not just fasting, but eating three big set meals a day. Breakfast, lunch (dinner), tea (dinner) - that whole can of worms again! - is a relatively recent thing and not necessarily in our best interests. Eating five or six smaller and healthier portions is certainly my ideal and makes me my healthiest.

Depends on your goals I suppose and if eating that way works for you then great.

However every time you eat you spike insulin and when elevated your body will not be able to burn fat (from what I’ve read) so that’s why intermittent fasting without changing what you eat can be successful for losing body fat.

 

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27 minutes ago, Huddersfield said:

I watched snippets of it & have put it on my ‘to do’ list!

I’m sort of interested in a way but have a strange set of health problems that have had a strange effect on my weight, diet & tastes. I actually think I’d cope better with it now than I might have done a couple of years back. Back then, I couldn’t manage any period of time without food without feeling very nauseous & faint. Probably greed, but that’s how it was. I used to have a chronic sweet tooth-full-blown chocoholic. I don’t even really like the stuff that much now! So although I think I could probably go longer periods without food, I feel that’s just not a good thing to do  

I’m also being told by consultants & researchers to try & get a decent intake of dairy & red meat which I suppose runs contrary to modern thinking (but perhaps not evolution!). 

I guess the evolution argument is a perspective one really...did we evolve to adapt to not always having food or have we bucked it by ‘suddenly’ having food? 

In terms of evolution, I think the change of diet (added sugar, processed carbs) and snacking is having huge affects on society. 

Type 2 diabetes is slowly becoming an epidemic. 

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13 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Haven't watched the video yet so probably not best placed to make judgement but I would agree with Duncan that small amounts regularly seems most sensible. Could perhaps see the merits of fasting for 2 or 3 days to clear you out but 10-21 seems extreme to me. 

I of course do none of this, eating 3 meals a day the last one at 8.30pm, so hardly a cheerleader for healthy living.

Losing a foot to type 2 diabetes because of a bad diet seems more extreme than therapeutic fasting. The 10 - 21 is a course of treatment for various health issues.

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1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said:

In terms of evolution, I think the change of diet (added sugar, processed carbs) and snacking is having huge affects on society. 

Type 2 diabetes is slowly becoming an epidemic. 

Yes I agree with that. I think it’s incredibly hard as well to find foods that have no additives in. My core argument is based on eating something healthy being a better option than eating nothing at all, but I can accept nothing as an alternative to Just-Eat is probably better for you. 

 

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2 hours ago, Huddersfield said:

I watched snippets of it & have put it on my ‘to do’ list!

I’m sort of interested in a way but have a strange set of health problems that have had a strange effect on my weight, diet & tastes. I actually think I’d cope better with it now than I might have done a couple of years back. Back then, I couldn’t manage any period of time without food without feeling very nauseous & faint. Probably greed, but that’s how it was. I used to have a chronic sweet tooth-full-blown chocoholic. I don’t even really like the stuff that much now! So although I think I could probably go longer periods without food, I feel that’s just not a good thing to do  

I’m also being told by consultants & researchers to try & get a decent intake of dairy & red meat which I suppose runs contrary to modern thinking (but perhaps not evolution!). 

I guess the evolution argument is a perspective one really...did we evolve to adapt to not always having food or have we bucked it by ‘suddenly’ having food? 

We're specifically not evolved to eat dairy. It's only very very recently that some humans have evolved a genetic mutation that allows us tolerate dairy products.

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1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Losing a foot to type 2 diabetes because of a bad diet seems more extreme than therapeutic fasting. The 10 - 21 is a course of treatment for various health issues.

As I said, I haven't watched it , I am meaning in general terms it seems extreme. Of course losing a foot is worse.  

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8 hours ago, Orraloon said:

I notice that you didn't answer my second question.;)

Our eating habits have changed immensely over the past few centuries. Perhaps the biggest change has happened over the past 5 or 6 decades with our hugely increased consumption of added sugar. And before Mr Wind pops up again, I know some people have managed to survive very well eating nothing but honey for millennia, but they are the exception and deserve studies of their own. 

That is a tiny tiny fraction of time on the evolutionary scale.

If he'sa talking about the Hazda folk again, i looked into it and their diet changes year round, at some points their diet is almost all meat. They eat what is seasonally available.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/08/24/545631521/is-the-secret-to-a-healthier-microbiome-hidden-in-the-hadza-diet

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40686373

A Hazda plate of food

_97037862_berries976.jpg

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4 minutes ago, phart said:

If he'sa talking about the Hazda folk again, i looked into it and their diet changes year round, at some points their diet is almost all meat. They eat what is seasonally available.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/08/24/545631521/is-the-secret-to-a-healthier-microbiome-hidden-in-the-hadza-diet

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40686373

A Hazda plate of food

_97037862_berries976.jpg

Ah right. didn't need too much more studying then.:ok::lol:

 

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1 hour ago, phart said:

If he'sa talking about the Hazda folk again, i looked into it and their diet changes year round, at some points their diet is almost all meat. They eat what is seasonally available.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/08/24/545631521/is-the-secret-to-a-healthier-microbiome-hidden-in-the-hadza-diet

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40686373

A Hazda plate of food

_97037862_berries976.jpg

What, hunter gatherers just eat stuff that is seasonally available, astonishing, who'd have thunk it.

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1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

Ah right. didn't need too much more studying then.:ok::lol:

 

In the same way that you focus on sugar being the most evil product on the planet I'm entitled to focus on the Hazda's high sugar intake having no ill effects on them. Oh, and to get back to the thread subject they also fast on a daily basis going for periods of 15hr's without eating, a different type of fasting to the long term stuff PIAK is talking about but fasting nonetheless.

Edited by Eisegerwind
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1 hour ago, phart said:

If he'sa talking about the Hazda folk again, i looked into it and their diet changes year round, at some points their diet is almost all meat. They eat what is seasonally available.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/08/24/545631521/is-the-secret-to-a-healthier-microbiome-hidden-in-the-hadza-diet

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40686373

A Hazda plate of food

_97037862_berries976.jpg

What, entirely meat, red meat? Cancer thread for this methinks.

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2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Never mind a foot, I wouldn't be happy if I had to lose a couple of inches.

😂😂 I am no quite sure what you are referring to ...

I am blaming it on the fact I am physically exhausted having just been to the gym for the first time in 23 years. Soulless places,  I  remember why I don't go, but its still preferable to fasting for 10-21 days or losing a foot . Which may be the alternative if I continue to eat maynards wine gums by the box every night. 

 

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9 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

We're specifically not evolved to eat dairy. It's only very very recently that some humans have evolved a genetic mutation that allows us tolerate dairy products.

I guess though this is where science (and I guess my personal perspective on this issue) steps in. So one of the side-effects of my medication is a high risk of osteoporosis. The medicines are of course very new in any sense of human history. The two main things I've been advised to do are increase calcium and vitamin d. Eggs and some dairy are the best dietary bets for that. If I fast, I do of course lose a lot of the crap that's still present in what I eat but also lose nutrients that protect my health.

I think I probably extrapolate that to think that if we are stopping our own 'good' nutrients in order to stop us consuming bad stuff, that doesn't feel like a good strategy.

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28 minutes ago, Huddersfield said:

I guess though this is where science (and I guess my personal perspective on this issue) steps in. So one of the side-effects of my medication is a high risk of osteoporosis. The medicines are of course very new in any sense of human history. The two main things I've been advised to do are increase calcium and vitamin d. Eggs and some dairy are the best dietary bets for that. If I fast, I do of course lose a lot of the crap that's still present in what I eat but also lose nutrients that protect my health.

I think I probably extrapolate that to think that if we are stopping our own 'good' nutrients in order to stop us consuming bad stuff, that doesn't feel like a good strategy.

Fair enough, I guess if you have these sort of medical issues dairy products will probably help. Just as an aside, the Hazda don't do any dairy products.

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20 minutes ago, Eisegerwind said:

Fair enough, I guess if you have these sort of medical issues dairy products will probably help. Just as an aside, the Hazda don't do any dairy products.

Likewise, I can accept as I said that fasting v Just Eat is probably a good choice!

I know in the health circles I frequent there exists a (generally American) lobby who come on the forums & swear blind that they were cured from similar illnesses by packing up certain foods. Usually dairy or gluten. I guess I choose to listen to the consultants & researchers but maybe, who knows...

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9 minutes ago, Huddersfield said:

Likewise, I can accept as I said that fasting v Just Eat is probably a good choice!

I know in the health circles I frequent there exists a (generally American) lobby who come on the forums & swear blind that they were cured from similar illnesses by packing up certain foods. Usually dairy or gluten. I guess I choose to listen to the consultants & researchers but maybe, who knows...

I'm not so sure Just Eat is all that bad, at it's most basic it's just fuel, intake a certain amount of energy, either burn it or tun it into fat. I'm pretty much with you on the consultants and researchers. Things change, biology is complicated but all this sort of, one issue is either the cause of everything bad or the solution to everything that's wrong, I'm not buying into.

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Lot of speculation without watching the video or trying it. Bizarre.

If you try it, do it 100%.

For example don't think you can have a wee splash of milk in tea or coffee and get away with it. You can't. Anything that is going to provoke a metabolic response WILL break your fast and you are essentially starting again.

Water and that is it. Three days in you are not hungry. It is true.

I read about all this years ago and found it very convincing. Did a two week fast on the back of it.

From memory, once you have cleared all the food in your system your body switches into a kind of repair mode. It is like it takes advantage of not having to digest food to do all the internal DIY jobs it needs to catch up on but couldn't when it was having to work to process (typically a lot of very poor) foods. Digesting food is not a cost free exercise, it was like the body is gradually falling into disrepair as a result of the work it does to process food and especially if you are eating shite, e.g. heaps of sugar etc... It makes sense, your body is turning shite into acceptable fuel for you, but at what cost? You body is paying the price. So it needs a chance to do some internal housekeeping and famine / fasting is when it does it.

From an evolutionary point of view early humans (the vast majority of our biological history) would have had prolonged periods of feasting and famine (fasting) just as animals do. It would have been a regular and natural thing. Now most people never miss a meal. Maybe that is like not taking your car into the garage ever and just driving it continuously until it breaks. What if your body used famine to attend to other crucial business internally? You are never giving it a day off...

I also understand the only thing that has ever been proven to significantly extend lifespan in animals (including us) is severe calorie restriction. I saw one experiment where they had two monkeys (baboons maybe, siblings maybe,). One had food on demand, press a lever and food fell out, the other was restricted to (i think) 2/3 of the 'normal' calorie intake (it could have been even 50% or less I am not sure). The differences after years were amazing not just in the extended lifespan (and it is not insignificant the extension). It was literally everything. The other monkey was slow, dull and of course a bloater. The restricted one was sharp as fuck, bright eyed, youthful and in mint condition...

That tells me we are all eating far too much generally. Never mind horrifically bad foods.

What have you got to lose by trying it? Except about a stone and a half. :) 

edit: usual caveats about checking with your doctor if you have preexisting medical conditions.

 

 

 

Edited by thplinth
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On 9/17/2019 at 1:47 AM, ParisInAKilt said:

I’m attempting a 7 day fast, half way through day 4 now. Day 2 was the worst for hunger, but was less intense day 3 and now I only occasionally feel hungry. Probably not an ideal week to do it, shifts all over the place in work so my sleep hasn’t been great and now driving long distances over the next few days. 

Not doing it for weight loss but it’s inevitable that I’ll lose water weight and some body fat. 

I do a 7 day water fast every 6 weeks or so. Usually drop over a stone but it's only a short term for something like a holiday coming up.

Doing another before my mates wedding on the 5th October. My advice would be not to break your fast with anything other than soup or fruit. First few times I done it then I hadn't really looked into what to break it with and just ate as I normally would and it makes you feel sick and gives you an upset stomach.

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