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Performance schools under threat


er yir macaroon

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29 minutes ago, romanticscot said:

That's a fantastic idea, if you can structure it so that it is actually worth the risk, finish lower in the league but because you used youth financially your better off than someone 2 spots higher. 

Aye, I thought it was a great idea when I came across it. Just can't see the SFA ever doing something as clever as this tho...

It's 2% of their TV rights revenue that's reserved and distributed for U23s playing time (so not U21s in the squad as I first said) 

Info about it is in this Twitter thread

 

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1 hour ago, vanderark14 said:

I'll give you rangers, but you are being very selective. 

4 players from celtic isn't actually a bad return considering all 4 are likely to start. If I'm being pedantic Robertson also started at celtic albeit he was let go.

McKenna and fraser are likely starters so that's two from Aberdeen which again as arguably the 3rd biggest club, I would expect this to be about right. Staying with Aberdeen we have Campbell and mclennan coming through who if they realise their talent they will eventually become Scotland internationals, not guaranteed obviously but I'm illustrating how bad your eoin jess comment was.

Rangers recent record is poor, granted but prior to their death they produced great talent like Ferguson and mcgregor with Hutton also being a regular starter.

Hearts have souttar and they did produce craig gordon who was until very recently our number one goalie. Scott Bain briefly got that job and he is a product of the Aberdeen youth system.

You're being very harsh on Celtic and Aberdeen. 

So what about dundee united, motherwell and Hamilton? You.mentioned these teams. Who have they produced that would get into a top european side?

None of our clubs have produced that level of player, the only players we could put at that level are Robertson and maybe Tierney but Tierney is still a maybe. 

 

I think you are also being selective in choosing to read the parts of my post you want to read and ignoring the rest. 

Firstly I never once stated Dundee Utd, Hamilton, Motherwell, Kilmarnock have or should ever have to produce top level players. I actually said the players they have managed to produce on their respective budgets are decent. They have produced a decent standard of player for Scotland over the last 10 to 15 years. It is the top clubs Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs I expect more from and the very top clubs Celtic and Rangers where I expect the top players to come from. Celtic and Rangers have produced one player in the last 10 to 15 years that might be top level and that is Tierney and even he isn't proven yet. So no I am not being harsh on them at all. They have the biggest budgets the best facilities and can cherry pick the best young players and the only potentially real top level player they have produced between them in the last 15 years is Kieran Tierney. Not good enough. 

Secondly to answer your question in the last say 10 to 15 years Dundee Utd have produced Stuart Armstrong (EPL) , John Souttar and Johnny Russell, Motherwell James Mcfadden (EPL) and Stephen Pearson (EPL) Kilmarnock produced Kris Boyd, Stevie Naismith (EPL) and now Greg Taylor, Hamilton James McArthur (EPL) and Eammon Brophy. Aberdeen have produced one maybe two players of note since Eoin Jess and that is Ryan Fraser. (EPL) Scott McKenna granted has good potential. So my point still stands regarding Aberdeen that as one of our biggest clubs they are not producing as many players as a club of their size and stature should be. Yes they are doing a better job than Hearts and Hibs who I see as equal in size, but are Aberdeen producing more players than the  smaller clubs I have mentioned, sorry but no they aren't. If you honestly think Ryan Fraser, Scott McKenna and Scott Bain is good enough from Aberdeen over the last 10 to 15 years then fine but I don't think it is. 

Lastly Andy Robertson played for Celtic Boys club at 15 years old like thousands of other young boys he trained sporadically with them a few nights a week at Pro youth level. He was never offered a contract to join the Celtic Academy. He never came through the Celtic Academy.

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Would be very much like the SFA to cancel this before we’ve seen any real benefits from what I can produce. 

It’s blatantly obvious that we don’t produce very good players compared with even countries of similar and lower population. Unfortunately nobody involved our game appears to really want to change this long term. 

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8 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Would be very much like the SFA to cancel this before we’ve seen any real benefits from what I can produce. 

It’s blatantly obvious that we don’t produce very good players compared with even countries of similar and lower population. Unfortunately nobody involved our game appears to really want to change this long term. 

It's funny as well that from the first batch of players that the Performance schools have produced, there actually does appear to be a very good player come through them in Billy Gilmour. If ever there was a reason to keep them open it is surely the fact we have one genuine top talent that has come through from the very first in take of performance schools. One top player from each intake would be fantastic! But only the SFA would throw the schools out the window just as we're seeing the first shoots of their labour. 

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10 hours ago, bazmidd said:

I think you are also being selective in choosing to read the parts of my post you want to read and ignoring the rest. 

Firstly I never once stated Dundee Utd, Hamilton, Motherwell, Kilmarnock have or should ever have to produce top level players. I actually said the players they have managed to produce on their respective budgets are decent. They have produced a decent standard of player for Scotland over the last 10 to 15 years. It is the top clubs Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs I expect more from and the very top clubs Celtic and Rangers where I expect the top players to come from. Celtic and Rangers have produced one player in the last 10 to 15 years that might be top level and that is Tierney and even he isn't proven yet. So no I am not being harsh on them at all. They have the biggest budgets the best facilities and can cherry pick the best young players and the only potentially real top level player they have produced between them in the last 15 years is Kieran Tierney. Not good enough. 

Secondly to answer your question in the last say 10 to 15 years Dundee Utd have produced Stuart Armstrong (EPL) , John Souttar and Johnny Russell, Motherwell James Mcfadden (EPL) and Stephen Pearson (EPL) Kilmarnock produced Kris Boyd, Stevie Naismith (EPL) and now Greg Taylor, Hamilton James McArthur (EPL) and Eammon Brophy. Aberdeen have produced one maybe two players of note since Eoin Jess and that is Ryan Fraser. (EPL) Scott McKenna granted has good potential. So my point still stands regarding Aberdeen that as one of our biggest clubs they are not producing as many players as a club of their size and stature should be. Yes they are doing a better job than Hearts and Hibs who I see as equal in size, but are Aberdeen producing more players than the  smaller clubs I have mentioned, sorry but no they aren't. If you honestly think Ryan Fraser, Scott McKenna and Scott Bain is good enough from Aberdeen over the last 10 to 15 years then fine but I don't think it is. 

Lastly Andy Robertson played for Celtic Boys club at 15 years old like thousands of other young boys he trained sporadically with them a few nights a week at Pro youth level. He was never offered a contract to join the Celtic Academy. He never came through the Celtic Academy.

Come on min, I agree that the calibre of player all clubs have produced is not good enough in the last decade but you are clutching at straws if you are using Brophy, Taylor and Boyd.

There is no club producing a conveyor belt of talent in Scotland. 

Celtic are at least giving their youth a chance, providing 3 or 4 of the scotland starting line up IMO is a decent return for the country's top club. I completely agree regarding Rangers, they are on a mission to stop 10IAR and its clear their manager doesn't think the scottish boys are good enough, whether he is right or not is up for debate.

the only thing we disagree is who's to blame, I see the blame at the door of the SFA which is run by all of its member clubs not just the four "big" clubs. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by vanderark14
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10 minutes ago, adamntg said:

Looks like we can (almost) all agree that the clubs can’t be trusted with youth development and the SFA should continue with the Performance Schools as they start to bear fruit, especially given the trifling amount they cost. 

The clubs in Scotland can't be trusted with anything, that has been evident for years. There's not a set of balls between them to change things. As long as there's TV cash and 4 OF matches a season, the clubs/SFA are happy.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sfa-grassroots-review-power-scottish-20064153

This article sums it all up perfectly for me, the part about the lack of funding for Gemmill is a fucking disgrace

 

Edited by vanderark14
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45 minutes ago, adamntg said:

Looks like we can (almost) all agree that the clubs can’t be trusted with youth development and the SFA should continue with the Performance Schools as they start to bear fruit, especially given the trifling amount they cost. 

But isn't the point of the performance schools is that they get more time to play at a younger age than they would if they just joined a club. (Do the clubs do schooling as well as training?)

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1 hour ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

But isn't the point of the performance schools is that they get more time to play at a younger age than they would if they just joined a club. (Do the clubs do schooling as well as training?)

Yes.  Training before and after school, normal classes in between.

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3 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

The clubs in Scotland can't be trusted with anything, that has been evident for years. There's not a set of balls between them to change things. As long as there's TV cash and 4 OF matches a season, the clubs/SFA are happy.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sfa-grassroots-review-power-scottish-20064153

This article sums it all up perfectly for me, the part about the lack of funding for Gemmill is a fucking disgrace

 

Great article. Seeing all those names in one place is very encouraging. 13 players sold to England and Germany. 140 professionals produced already. None older than 19. I'm not sure exactly what statistics they were expecting, but surely it couldn't have been much better than that. 

Re-evaluting when the first class are 25 might be a good idea, then we can do a proper decade on decade comparison. But, even now, most of us will be encouraged by the results. 

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5 hours ago, Tartan_McCole said:

O'Donnell also.

O'Donnell didn't start at Celtic, he was still an Amateur at 16 and 17 playing for Wishaw Wycombe Wanderers in the Caledonian league, so he wasn't brought through an academy at any club. He was then scouted by Aberdeen who picked him up, then Celtic scouted him afterwards and picked him up from Aberdeen. 

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9 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

Come on min, I agree that the calibre of player all clubs have produced is not good enough in the last decade but you are clutching at straws if you are using Brophy, Taylor and Boyd.

There is no club producing a conveyor belt of talent in Scotland. 

Celtic are at least giving their youth a chance, providing 3 or 4 of the scotland starting line up IMO is a decent return for the country's top club. I completely agree regarding Rangers, they are on a mission to stop 10IAR and its clear their manager doesn't think the scottish boys are good enough, whether he is right or not is up for debate.

the only thing we disagree is who's to blame, I see the blame at the door of the SFA which is run by all of its member clubs not just the four "big" clubs. 

 

 

 

 

I don't know how you can say I am clutching at straws when you are pulling Scott Bain out the bag lol Brophy is the same standard as Scott Bain, Greg Taylor a better standard and Kris Boyd was an even higher standard than Scott Bain is. I don't see how all the blame can be pinned on the SFA. As has been discussed already they don't run the Scottish Leagues so they are not in a position to enforce any rules that would force clubs to develop more youth players. The SFA have made efforts in the last 10 years starting with introducing a a full time position of performance director, a position that is still in place with Malky MacKay just now. It is the performance directors job to overlook all aspects of youth development and play a pivotal role in the Performance Schools which is a youth development initiative the SFA have introduced and overseen. The most recent initiative is Project Brave which whether you like what is in those plans or not is another effort from the SFA at improving youth development in Scotland. To me the only ones attempting to bring everyone together on this is the SFA but they seem to be coming up against a difference of opinion on the way forward for youth development in Scotland from certain clubs. The clubs may be right who is to say they are wrong or the SFA may be right, I don't know, but everyone has to start pulling together in the right direction one way or another. The root problem is far too much self interest at clubs which although understandable at times when it comes down to budgets etc it has held back the SFA from pushing our youth structure to where it wants it to be. They continually talk of creating elite level players but the only way that will happen is if our young players get elite level coaching and opportunities. Do our clubs give them this? 

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16 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

I don't know how you can say I am clutching at straws when you are pulling Scott Bain out the bag lol Brophy is the same standard as Scott Bain, Greg Taylor a better standard and Kris Boyd was an even higher standard than Scott Bain is. I don't see how all the blame can be pinned on the SFA. As has been discussed already they don't run the Scottish Leagues so they are not in a position to enforce any rules that would force clubs to develop more youth players. The SFA have made efforts in the last 10 years starting with introducing a a full time position of performance director, a position that is still in place with Malky MacKay just now. It is the performance directors job to overlook all aspects of youth development and play a pivotal role in the Performance Schools which is a youth development initiative the SFA have introduced and overseen. The most recent initiative is Project Brave which whether you like what is in those plans or not is another effort from the SFA at improving youth development in Scotland. To me the only ones attempting to bring everyone together on this is the SFA but they seem to be coming up against a difference of opinion on the way forward for youth development in Scotland from certain clubs. The clubs may be right who is to say they are wrong or the SFA may be right, I don't know, but everyone has to start pulling together in the right direction one way or another. The root problem is far too much self interest at clubs which although understandable at times when it comes down to budgets etc it has held back the SFA from pushing our youth structure to where it wants it to be. They continually talk of creating elite level players but the only way that will happen is if our young players get elite level coaching and opportunities. Do our clubs give them this? 

I didnt say the SFA weren't doing anything to change things, I said they were to blame along with the clubs for the lack of talent scotland is producing over the last 20 years. To be clear here I am blaming both the SFA and the clubs for the lack of talent. The SFA is an oganistion run by its members who are the clubs so they are all to blame.

The performance schools are a good idea, I've said as much on here, getting rid of them would be utter stupidity because we are only now seeing some players graduating.

I only used bain as an example of another Scotland player produced by Aberdeen. I wasnt commenting on how good he was.

 

 

Edited by vanderark14
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On 9/17/2019 at 8:58 AM, Squirrelhumper said:

Nonsense.

For starters, we;'ve just sold one to another SPFL side for £2m.

The Scotland squad has guys like McGinn, Forrest, McGregor, Mclean, Naismith, Robertson, Fraser etc who all came through SPFL youth systems.

If they are good enough, they'll get a game.

And if they're slightly not good enough yet

They'll have an overpaid average at best foreign journeyman ahead of them

As the clubs can't possibly take the risk

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16 hours ago, bazmidd said:

O'Donnell didn't start at Celtic, he was still an Amateur at 16 and 17 playing for Wishaw Wycombe Wanderers in the Caledonian league, so he wasn't brought through an academy at any club. He was then scouted by Aberdeen who picked him up, then Celtic scouted him afterwards and picked him up from Aberdeen. 

Shows what I know. Think I skim read something about it a while back and just seen Celtics name so presumed. Cheers for that!

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5 hours ago, er yir macaroon said:

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/international-tournament-awaits-under-18s/

This SFA article on the u18 squad no longer has an asterisk next to a Performance School player.


They state the performance school pupils with a 'PS'
 
Full squad (PS denotes Scottish FA JD Performance School Pupil)

Andrew Winter (Hamilton Academical)
Cammy Logan (Heart of Midlothian)
Ciaran Dickson (Rangers) – PS
Cieran Slicker (Mancester City)
Connor McAvoy (Fulham)
Connor Smith (Heart of Midlothian)* – PS
Elliot Anderson (Newcastle United)
Finn Ecrepont (Ayr United) – PS
Jack Newman (Sunderland)
Jamie Hamilton (Hamilton Academical)
Joe McGlynn (Burnley)
Josh Doig (Hibernian)
Kai Kennedy (Rangers)
Kane Patterson (Burnley)
Lewis Macari (Stoke City)
Reece McAlear (Norwich City) – PS
Sonny Blu Lo-Everton
Stuart McKinstry (Leeds United) – PS
Thomas Dickson-Peters (Norwich City)
Josh Mulligan (Dundee) (Added to squad, 18 September)
* on loan to Cowdenbeath

Withdrawn
Connor Barron (Aberdeen) – PS

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2 hours ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

They state the performance school pupils with a 'PS'
 
Full squad (PS denotes Scottish FA JD Performance School Pupil)

Andrew Winter (Hamilton Academical)
Cammy Logan (Heart of Midlothian)
Ciaran Dickson (Rangers) – PS
Cieran Slicker (Mancester City)
Connor McAvoy (Fulham)
Connor Smith (Heart of Midlothian)* – PS
Elliot Anderson (Newcastle United)
Finn Ecrepont (Ayr United) – PS
Jack Newman (Sunderland)
Jamie Hamilton (Hamilton Academical)
Joe McGlynn (Burnley)
Josh Doig (Hibernian)
Kai Kennedy (Rangers)
Kane Patterson (Burnley)
Lewis Macari (Stoke City)
Reece McAlear (Norwich City) – PS
Sonny Blu Lo-Everton
Stuart McKinstry (Leeds United) – PS
Thomas Dickson-Peters (Norwich City)
Josh Mulligan (Dundee) (Added to squad, 18 September)
* on loan to Cowdenbeath

Withdrawn
Connor Barron (Aberdeen) – PS

It wasn’t there earlier. They must read this stuff. 

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17 hours ago, er yir macaroon said:

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/international-tournament-awaits-under-18s/

This SFA article on the u18 squad no longer has an asterisk next to a Performance School player.

Not too bad squad, watched highlights of McKinstry playing for Leeds u23s at Elland Road the other night against Watford u23s. The boy is 16 years old it was his debut and he was fantastic. Heard good things about Kai Kennedy at Rangers as well. 

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4 hours ago, bazmidd said:

Not too bad squad, watched highlights of McKinstry playing for Leeds u23s at Elland Road the other night against Watford u23s. The boy is 16 years old it was his debut and he was fantastic. Heard good things about Kai Kennedy at Rangers as well. 

Yeah, I just flicked through the 90 minutes. McKinstry looked quite promising considering his age. A bit of fight about him as well as good quality on the ball. Kennedy is very good on the ball, although he’s short and not especially quick, so he’ll need to be exceptional in other areas and find a position where he can maximise the positives - and I think he will. 

Edited by er yir macaroon
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