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Performance schools under threat


er yir macaroon

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30 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Celtic appear to, in fact if the cost of running is between £450k and  £700k it would make sense for them to take it over should it close

Celtic and Rangers have their own schools (literally) but the SFA have a duty to supplement the training of elite players, as all other top countries do. 

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3 hours ago, Toepoke said:

Absolutely this. I mentioned on another thread it will take something like the imposition of a ruling requiring all SPFL sides to have a minimum of 4 or 5 Scots in their starting XI for any real difference to be made. And of course the chances of that happening are minimal. 

 

What would be more interesting would be if only Scottish players were allowed on the bench, might stop so many mediocre English players making up squads

7 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

Celtic and Rangers have their own schools (literally) but the SFA have a duty to supplement the training of elite players, as all other top countries do. 

A duty perhaps but not an obligation

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5 hours ago, Toepoke said:

Absolutely this. I mentioned on another thread it will take something like the imposition of a ruling requiring all SPFL sides to have a minimum of 4 or 5 Scots in their starting XI for any real difference to be made. And of course the chances of that happening are minimal. 

 

They will never impose that on themselves

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The performance schools closing would be the biggest act of self harm yet by the SFA. There are numerous superb young players going through these just now, with some good coaching. Clubs have zero desire to improve the game nationally, this is a measure purely to bag a few thousand pounds extra. 

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On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 10:08 AM, Bino's said:

The spfl teams have nil desire to develop youth

Nonsense.

For starters, we;'ve just sold one to another SPFL side for £2m.

The Scotland squad has guys like McGinn, Forrest, McGregor, Mclean, Naismith, Robertson, Fraser etc who all came through SPFL youth systems.

If they are good enough, they'll get a game.

Edited by Squirrelhumper
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On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 11:14 AM, Toepoke said:

Absolutely this. I mentioned on another thread it will take something like the imposition of a ruling requiring all SPFL sides to have a minimum of 4 or 5 Scots in their starting XI for any real difference to be made. And of course the chances of that happening are minimal. 

 

I don't even think that's legal.

In what other business/employment would you get away with only employing folk that were born in your country?

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1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I don't even think that's legal.

In what other business/employment would you get away with only employing folk that were born in your country?

A good point. How do Bilbao get round this illegality out of interest? I've always wondered. 

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Vogts failed to qualify for a major tournament; Smith failed, McLeish failed, Burley failed,  Levein failed, Strachan failed.

How much evidence do we need that the players the clubs are producing are not good enough? In the squad to play Belgium and Russia, we had three goalkeepers all playing their football in the English lower leagues. Closing down the performance schools is an outrageous act of greedy self-interest by clubs which want their hands on the money and do not care about the national team.

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3 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Nonsense.

For starters, we;'ve just sold one to another SPFL side for £2m.

The Scotland squad has guys like McGinn, Forrest, McGregor, Mclean, Naismith, Robertson, Fraser etc who all came through SPFL youth systems.

If they are good enough, they'll get a game.

It's not nonsense at all!  All those players individually will have no doubt earned their own development cost back in the transfer fees they have generated, but for everyone of them there are countless other players who don't make the grade and are essentially money down the drain!  That's why clubs are less interested in producing their own youth these days.

These schools have only been going since 2012.  Less than 7 years ffs!  Were the SFA/clubs/whoever honestly expecting a whole national squad capable of qualifying for a major tournament in that short time?

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4 hours ago, Arbroath1320 said:

Vogts failed to qualify for a major tournament; Smith failed, McLeish failed, Burley failed,  Levein failed, Strachan failed.

How much evidence do we need that the players the clubs are producing are not good enough? In the squad to play Belgium and Russia, we had three goalkeepers all playing their football in the English lower leagues. Closing down the performance schools is an outrageous act of greedy self-interest by clubs which want their hands on the money and do not care about the national team.

I really don’t get it.....is the relentless failure to not qualify for major tournaments the reason the Performance Schools were set up in the first place??!

The truth is clubs do not have the patience to develop players.... managers don’t get enough time for a start..... there’s got to be a degree of instant success or they are out on their arses within half a season. Playing kids is seen as a “risk” so they opt for experience. 

I always use Levein as an example. Two seasons ago, Hearts were skelping Celtic 4-1 with a young, exciting squad of players. Add to that the experience of players like Naismith and they had a real recipe for success. Fast forward a couple of seasons, where are these young talented hungry players now? And more importantly where are Hearts now???

Am sure Levein has recently said something along the lines of Cochrane not being physically ready for the SPL yet.....best midfielder at the club though....what chance have we got with this kind of mentality?!

Then you’ve got the Stevie G’s who would rather develop other team’s players...

Edited by SWMM82
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8 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I don't even think that's legal.

In what other business/employment would you get away with only employing folk that were born in your country?

As I said it would be doubtful that such an idea would be taken onboard, but football makes the rules.  Eg. we had a requirement for a certain number of youth players in a matchday squad not so long ago, or back in the 90s when Italian clubs had a limit of 3 non Italian players in their teams.

Anyway under my suggestion you could still have 7 non Scots in your team plus subs, so it wouldn't be that discriminatory. 

 

 

Edited by Toepoke
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1 hour ago, SWMM82 said:

I really don’t get it.....is the relentless failure to not qualify for major tournaments the reason the Performance Schools were set up in the first place??!

The truth is clubs do not have the patience to develop players.... managers don’t get enough time for a start..... there’s got to be a degree of instant success or they are out on their arses within half a season. Playing kids is seen as a “risk” so they opt for experience. 

I always use Levein as an example. Two seasons ago, Hearts were skelping Celtic 4-1 with a young, exciting squad of players. Add to that the experience of players like Naismith and they had a real recipe for success. Fast forward a couple of seasons, where are these young talented hungry players now? And more importantly where are Hearts now???

Am sure Levein has recently said something along the lines of Cochrane not being physically ready for the SPL yet.....best midfielder at the club though....what chance have we got with this kind of mentality?!

Then you’ve got the Stevie G’s who would rather develop other team’s players...

Pretty much bang on the money, I would not for a second tar every club with the same brush, clubs like Motherwell, Kilmarnock Dundee Utd etc have all done their bit in recent years. They tend to produce a decent standard of player for the size of their clubs. It is our biggest clubs that are the problem. I am pointing the finger of blame here mostly at Rangers and Celtic here but Hearts, Aberdeen and Hibs haven't covered themselves in glory either. Rangers have produced no one since Alan Hutton, not one player. That is a disgrace. Celtic have produced Forrest, McGregor, Tierney, but it can be argued only Tierney is the truly top class player they have produced since bloody Charlie Nicholas!! They have done nowhere near enough to produce top class players. And by top class I mean the standard the likes of Ajax can produce not a couple o f players who can turn it on against St Johnstone and Hamilton. Hearts Hibs and Aberdeen are the next biggest clubs, not since Craig Gordon have they produced one player of real note between them. Couple of decent players here and there but not nearly enough. Hearts are full of journeymen at the minute, has a decent player come out of Hibs since the days of O'connor and Riordan, even McGinn came from St Mirren. Aberdeen, christ they still laud Eoin Jess as a symbol of their commitment to youth. It is Hamilton, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd even St Mirren currently that have done their bit for the national team in recent years, these clubs probably produce more players than expected for the budgets they work with, whilst the big clubs have produced who in the last 5 years... Aberdeen - Fraser, McKenna, Celtic - Forrest, Tierney, McGregor, Hearts -? Hibs -?, Rangers -? Not good enough

Edited by bazmidd
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3 hours ago, SWMM82 said:

I really don’t get it.....is the relentless failure to not qualify for major tournaments the reason the Performance Schools were set up in the first place??!

The truth is clubs do not have the patience to develop players.... managers don’t get enough time for a start..... there’s got to be a degree of instant success or they are out on their arses within half a season. Playing kids is seen as a “risk” so they opt for experience. 

I always use Levein as an example. Two seasons ago, Hearts were skelping Celtic 4-1 with a young, exciting squad of players. Add to that the experience of players like Naismith and they had a real recipe for success. Fast forward a couple of seasons, where are these young talented hungry players now? And more importantly where are Hearts now???

Am sure Levein has recently said something along the lines of Cochrane not being physically ready for the SPL yet.....best midfielder at the club though....what chance have we got with this kind of mentality?!

Then you’ve got the Stevie G’s who would rather develop other team’s players...

The truth is clubs do not have the patience to develop players....

Nor do they have the patience to wait seven years for a boy to progress through school.

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10 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I don't even think that's legal.

In what other business/employment would you get away with only employing folk that were born in your country?

Would it actually be an employment issue? There'd be nothing stopping them employing as many as they wish.

Probably the easiest way round it would be to limit squad sizes with as many as they want from their own youth system to supplement it though.

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7 hours ago, ProudScot said:

They just choose to play home grown.

Scottish clubs could do the same out of choice.

what there can’t be is a rule to enforce it. 

Well there can actually, there can be a rule to enforce a certain amount of homegrown players in a squad. It has already been brought into England. I actually wrote a post on this on another thread a while ago, it is something we should implement on clubs here. Do a quick Google search mate, homegrown player rules, and it will come up right away. It is a round about way of forcing clubs to have homegrown players in their squads

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17 hours ago, bazmidd said:

Pretty much bang on the money, I would not for a second tar every club with the same brush, clubs like Motherwell, Kilmarnock Dundee Utd etc have all done their bit in recent years. They tend to produce a decent standard of player for the size of their clubs. It is our biggest clubs that are the problem. I am pointing the finger of blame here mostly at Rangers and Celtic here but Hearts, Aberdeen and Hibs haven't covered themselves in glory either. Rangers have produced no one since Alan Hutton, not one player. That is a disgrace. Celtic have produced Forrest, McGregor, Tierney, but it can be argued only Tierney is the truly top class player they have produced since bloody Charlie Nicholas!! They have done nowhere near enough to produce top class players. And by top class I mean the standard the likes of Ajax can produce not a couple o f players who can turn it on against St Johnstone and Hamilton. Hearts Hibs and Aberdeen are the next biggest clubs, not since Craig Gordon have they produced one player of real note between them. Couple of decent players here and there but not nearly enough. Hearts are full of journeymen at the minute, has a decent player come out of Hibs since the days of O'connor and Riordan, even McGinn came from St Mirren. Aberdeen, christ they still laud Eoin Jess as a symbol of their commitment to youth. It is Hamilton, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd even St Mirren currently that have done their bit for the national team in recent years, these clubs probably produce more players than expected for the budgets they work with, whilst the big clubs have produced who in the last 5 years... Aberdeen - Fraser, McKenna, Celtic - Forrest, Tierney, McGregor, Hearts -? Hibs -?, Rangers -? Not good enough

Hahahaha what an absolute pile of shite

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2 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

A counter argument would be productive.... Or are simple comments as much as a simple mind can muster

the reply is exactly what your post deserved but just in case you actually believe what your wrote

You said "It is Hamilton, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd even St Mirren currently that have done their bit for the national team in recent years"

I went through the current team and teams from recent years and I can see plenty players who have come from Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Rangers and Celtic. The current team has a few from Hearts, Aberdeen but especially Celtic. You even contradict your own post by stating who Aberdeen and Celtic have produced in recent years. 

 

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In Germany part of the TV rights money for the Bundesliga league is held back and distributed to the clubs that have Germany U21's in their match day squads. No rule that says they have to have them in the squad but financial incentives to do so. Not sure you'd get Scottish clubs to agree to that kind of deal tho...

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2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

the reply is exactly what your post deserved but just in case you actually believe what your wrote

You said "It is Hamilton, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd even St Mirren currently that have done their bit for the national team in recent years"

I went through the current team and teams from recent years and I can see plenty players who have come from Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Rangers and Celtic. The current team has a few from Hearts, Aberdeen but especially Celtic. You even contradict your own post by stating who Aberdeen and Celtic have produced in recent years. 

 

Ok who are all these players? Most recent starting line up v Belgium.. 

Marshall - Celtic, O'Donnell - Amateurs, Mulgrew - Celtic, Cooper - Hull, Robertson - Queens Park, Snodgrass - Livingston, McLean - St Mirren, McTominay - Man Utd, McGregor - Celtic, Christie - Inverness, Phillips - Wycombe

Versus Russia

Fraser - Aberdeen for Snodgrass, McGinn - St Mirren for McLean, Forrest - Celtic for Christie, McBurnie - Bradford for Phillips. 

So we have an almighty 4 from Celtic, the biggest club in Scotland, the best youth system in Scotland, the pick of young talent in Scotland and they can muster 4, and not one of those four would get into any top side in Europe, probably not even a top ten side in England, not good enough for a club the size of Celtic. Then we have 1 from Aberdeen. 0 from Hibs, 0 from Hearts and 0 from Rangers. 0 from three of the biggest clubs in Scotland and one of those clubs, Rangers are as big as Celtic, a global club with a worldwide fan base with one of the largest budgets and best training facilities in Scotland and able to cherry pick the best young talent in Scotland and they have produced zero players for the current national side. It is pitiful. 

 

 

Edited by bazmidd
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2 hours ago, SlamDuncan said:

In Germany part of the TV rights money for the Bundesliga league is held back and distributed to the clubs that have Germany U21's in their match day squads. No rule that says they have to have them in the squad but financial incentives to do so. Not sure you'd get Scottish clubs to agree to that kind of deal tho...

That's a fantastic idea, if you can structure it so that it is actually worth the risk, finish lower in the league but because you used youth financially your better off than someone 2 spots higher. 

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3 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

Ok who are all these players? Most recent starting line up v Belgium.. 

Marshall - Celtic, O'Donnell - Wycombe, Mulgrew - Celtic, Cooper - Hull, Robertson - Queens Park, Snodgrass - Livingston, McLean - St Mirren, McTominay - Man Utd, McGregor - Celtic, Christie - Inverness, Phillips - Wycombe

Versus Russia

Fraser - Aberdeen for Snodgrass, McGinn - St Mirren for McLean, Forrest - Celtic for Christie, McBurnie - Bradford for Phillips. 

So we have an almighty 4 from Celtic, the biggest club in Scotland, the best youth system in Scotland, the pick of young talent in Scotland and they can muster 4, and not one of those four would get into any top side in Europe, probably not even a top ten side in England, not good enough for a club the size of Celtic. Then we have 1 from Aberdeen. 0 from Hibs, 0 from Hearts and 0 from Rangers. 0 from three of the biggest clubs in Scotland and one of those clubs, Rangers are as big as Celtic, a global club with a worldwide fan base with one of the largest budgets and best training facilities in Scotland and able to cherry pick the best young talent in Scotland and they have produced zero players for the current national side. It is pitiful. 

 

 

I'll give you rangers, but you are being very selective. 

4 players from celtic isn't actually a bad return considering all 4 are likely to start. If I'm being pedantic Robertson also started at celtic albeit he was let go.

McKenna and fraser are likely starters so that's two from Aberdeen which again as arguably the 3rd biggest club, I would expect this to be about right. Staying with Aberdeen we have Campbell and mclennan coming through who if they realise their talent they will eventually become Scotland internationals, not guaranteed obviously but I'm illustrating how bad your eoin jess comment was.

Rangers recent record is poor, granted but prior to their death they produced great talent like Ferguson and mcgregor with Hutton also being a regular starter.

Hearts have souttar and they did produce craig gordon who was until very recently our number one goalie. Scott Bain briefly got that job and he is a product of the Aberdeen youth system.

You're being very harsh on Celtic and Aberdeen. 

So what about dundee united, motherwell and Hamilton? You.mentioned these teams. Who have they produced that would get into a top european side?

None of our clubs have produced that level of player, the only players we could put at that level are Robertson and maybe Tierney but Tierney is still a maybe. 

 

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