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marinello

Reflections/Projections.

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Yup, feeling sore.

Remember though that we have just lost to the best in world and the WC quarter finalists. That's what can happen to a 47 th ranked team!!

As for the revisionists re Strachan and Mc Leish. C' Mon get a grip. Strachan with his very increasingly odd selections and plain stupid statements was a busted flush. Mc Leish was clearly not cutting it. Getting to Nation's League doesn't disguise this IMO as the opposition were truly low grade. Qualification was the least tone expected and even then we fell over the line.

The future is promising. The manager is sound. As for the squad we know we are strong enough in midfield to dominate the team's we are likely to face. Goalie will do. Defence and attack need attended and will be under Clarke;

Defence;

 

Centre backs to be drawn from Mc Kenna, Souttar, Mulgrew and Halkett. Cooper and perhaps Lindsay or indeed Gallagher at Motherwell as back ups. Then there is Tierney who could ( and has) played left centre back. These I feel are all promising options.

As for RB we have IMO Paterson who is now fit. Back ups could be O'Donnell and again Tierney. ( If Mc Grain could switch Tierney could do likewise).

Strikers. Got to get Griff back with back up provided by Naisy who I feel has enough petrol left in tank to hurt the standard of opposition to be faced in March. Fletcher too if he is still available? What was outcome of his chat with Clarke? Snoddy is also a consideration as are Russell and Phillips who last night never stopped trying. As for Mc Burnie. No. Having endured first hand his ' efforts' in Astana and last Friday he surely shows the absurdity of the English transfer system. 20million---- God help us all.

There are solid grounds for hope. Just need a lot of factors to fall into place at same time.

BELIEVE.

 

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Folk want Tierney at right-back, but if we really have to play the guy out of position then get him in front of that horrendous back 4 to give them some protection.  That way we might still get the occasional driving run up the park from him when he isn't tidying up the non-stop flow of clangers from behind him.  He's ineffective on the right in an attacking sense.

It'll be interesting to see where Arsenal play him.  Rodgers thought he'd end up as a centre-half which might be even better for us.

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Tierney can’t play right back-tried before-failed. He’s a left back. Paterson isn’t a defender anymore-he’s a forward and we should play him up top alongside griffiths if available.

As for defenders? I’d call up halkett at CB. Cooper is fine. Souttar as cover. For right back? Recall Phil bardsley Taylor as cover.

New captain? I’d draft in Charlie Adam as captain because he’s desperate to play and has solid experience as captain-before you say he’s too old he’s younger than Scott brown. I’d also bring in John Fleck, Liam Henderson and mikey Johnson into next squad.

 

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Gk: Marshall's done ok. Made some good saves. No calamities in his distribution the last couple of games, so long may that continue. McLaughlin still thought of as one of the best players at Sunderland. Shame that Kelly is now just sat on the bench for QPR tho.

RB: O'Donnell did well enough against Belgium imo. Tierney would be the first choice as a defensive RB, but O'Donnell looked much improved on the Russia performance. Palmer still to have a real opportunity. Ralston perhaps going to play a decent number of games this season.

LB: Depth as always. Robertson, Tierney, Taylor, Douglas. No worries.

CB: Mulgrew's experience still feels like it's valuable. McKenna, Souttar, Bates, Devlin, Lindsay, Findlay.. Porteous and Halkett even. Lots of options, but mostly young and in need of experience.

CM: McTominay and Armstrong are solid. Henderson, Fulton, Byers, Turnbull, McCrorie, Hamilton and Gilmour all on the periphery. McGinn maturing and hopefully McGregor can get over whatever his problem is at international level. Christie in attacking areas, Ewan Henderson on the horizon and dare to dream; Ryan Gauld.

Wings: Fraser is the main nailed on one. Forrest is hit and miss again sadly. Snoddy and Russell have something to offer still. Hastie, Burke, Johnston, Morgan, Middleton all coming thru.

ST: Griff is the main hope if Fletch has finally decided to hang up his international boots. We're incredibly short of optoins behind them tho. Naismith for a nother year or two i guess. Rhodes might get a fair shake under new manager Gary Monk. Harper seems to have slipped into obscurity again. Then it's Shankland, Hardie and Hornby coming thru.


All's not lost, for sure, but there's an awful lot riding on whether a lot of young kids will develop as well as we hope they will. Some will, some wont. I think it's important to now be getting a look at players in an international setting.

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Difficult to find positives out of that performance, seriously hope this isn't the sign of things to come, we used to step our performances up against the better teams, we did nothing of the sort last night. 

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3 hours ago, Scotsdeutsch said:

Tierney can’t play right back-tried before-failed.

IIRC Tierney played 7 times at right back and we never lost once.

 

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I think the mentality yesterday was we were pressing forward, and we clearly did not have the defensive discipline or mental composure/personnel to make a success of it against clearly one of the worlds best teams. We had to win, I would have preferred a bit more caution in the first half but I don't see yesterday as a typical game plan for us. The positives for me are we have a play off, we have 4 low pressure but competitive games to get ourselves in order, I do firmly believe we have the right coach and expect that comes the play offs we will be a far better team.  No guarantees in football we will make it through the play off but we have that, when in years gone by we haven't.  This could be a blessing in disguise, but the only proof of that will be come EURO 2020 we are qualified.

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1 hour ago, Toepoke said:

IIRC Tierney played 7 times at right back and we never lost once.

 

Aye I'm sure a while back on another thread I listed all the games Tierney played RB and as you say we never lost!  As the OP originally stated McGrain could do it so why can't Tierney?

I'm pretty sure a few years back Belgium themselves had the same task of trying to fit in 4 world class defenders and managed it fine

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4 hours ago, andyD said:

Gk: Marshall's done ok. Made some good saves. No calamities in his distribution the last couple of games, so long may that continue. McLaughlin still thought of as one of the best players at Sunderland. Shame that Kelly is now just sat on the bench for QPR tho.

RB: O'Donnell did well enough against Belgium imo. Tierney would be the first choice as a defensive RB, but O'Donnell looked much improved on the Russia performance. Palmer still to have a real opportunity. Ralston perhaps going to play a decent number of games this season.

LB: Depth as always. Robertson, Tierney, Taylor, Douglas. No worries.

CB: Mulgrew's experience still feels like it's valuable. McKenna, Souttar, Bates, Devlin, Lindsay, Findlay.. Porteous and Halkett even. Lots of options, but mostly young and in need of experience.

CM: McTominay and Armstrong are solid. Henderson, Fulton, Byers, Turnbull, McCrorie, Hamilton and Gilmour all on the periphery. McGinn maturing and hopefully McGregor can get over whatever his problem is at international level. Christie in attacking areas, Ewan Henderson on the horizon and dare to dream; Ryan Gauld.

Wings: Fraser is the main nailed on one. Forrest is hit and miss again sadly. Snoddy and Russell have something to offer still. Hastie, Burke, Johnston, Morgan, Middleton all coming thru.

ST: Griff is the main hope if Fletch has finally decided to hang up his international boots. We're incredibly short of optoins behind them tho. Naismith for a nother year or two i guess. Rhodes might get a fair shake under new manager Gary Monk. Harper seems to have slipped into obscurity again. Then it's Shankland, Hardie and Hornby coming thru.


All's not lost, for sure, but there's an awful lot riding on whether a lot of young kids will develop as well as we hope they will. Some will, some wont. I think it's important to now be getting a look at players in an international setting.

Ralston? Are you serious?

He is one of the worst footballers I have ever seen. 

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10 hours ago, marinello said:

Yup, feeling sore.

Remember though that we have just lost to the best in world and the WC quarter finalists. That's what can happen to a 47 th ranked team!

 

Belgium used to be at a similar level

They completely changed the way they coached youngsters, went very technical

They persuaded all the clubs to play 433 at youth levels, as did all the national youth teams

This is the result

It doesn't just happen

We will change nothing

Our clubs will change nothing

 

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Some of the suggestions in this thread are ridiculous. Charlie Adam, Phil Bardsley....

The positives you can take from the 2 games last week are Christie looking competent at that level. Ryan Fraser turning up and playing reasonably well. Matt Phillips isn’t a world beater, but was a clear upgrade on McBurnie.

We’ve got Tierney, Griffiths and McKenna all to come back all of whom would likely start if available.

We have loads of attacking options in midfield.

Not to go all Gordon Strachan, but a negative for me is that almost all our better players are about 5’ 8” and 9 stone. 😂

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18 minutes ago, sbcmfc said:

Some of the suggestions in this thread are ridiculous. Charlie Adam, Phil Bardsley....

The positives you can take from the 2 games last week are Christie looking competent at that level. Ryan Fraser turning up and playing reasonably well. Matt Phillips isn’t a world beater, but was a clear upgrade on McBurnie.

We’ve got Tierney, Griffiths and McKenna all to come back all of whom would likely start if available.

We have loads of attacking options in midfield.

Not to go all Gordon Strachan, but a negative for me is that almost all our better players are about 5’ 8” and 9 stone. 😂

I'm not so sure about McKenna, I'm not in the camp who thinks he's pish because he hasn't performed any worse than anyone else in a Scotland shirt but I do  think he needs a move or he will stagnate at Aberdeen. Aberdeen are going nowhere except third place at the very best nowadays, the duopoly is back so anyone with ambition needs to get te feck out of scotland IMO.

I do agree Griffiths and Tierney will improve us but its just our luck Griffiths isn't starting for celtic

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3 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

I do agree Griffiths and Tierney will improve us but its just our luck Griffiths isn't starting for celtic

I’m hoping he’s being phased back in. Would expect when Europa league gets underway he’ll be getting game time whether it be half an hour or starting? He doesn’t seem the sort that has to be playing week in week out, so either way I wouldn’t be too worried.

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14 hours ago, Bino's said:

Belgium used to be at a similar level

They completely changed the way they coached youngsters, went very technical

They persuaded all the clubs to play 433 at youth levels, as did all the national youth teams

This is the result

It doesn't just happen

We will change nothing

Our clubs will change nothing

 

Think the Germans once did something similar. 4-3-3 does seem to be the modern way though slightly different from the old 4-3-3 with 2 strikers and one orthodox winger.

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20 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

I'm not so sure about McKenna, I'm not in the camp who thinks he's pish because he hasn't performed any worse than anyone else in a Scotland shirt but I do  think he needs a move or he will stagnate at Aberdeen. Aberdeen are going nowhere except third place at the very best nowadays, the duopoly is back so anyone with ambition needs to get te feck out of scotland IMO.

You’ll have seen a lot more of McKenna than me.

The important thing for me would be he makes the right move. Somewhere where he can be challenged and progress, but get 1st team football.

Hate seeing talented young players go to play for u-23s in England and more often than not disappearing off the face of the earth.

Mark Reynolds probably stayed at Motherwell too long and stunted his development, I think he should’ve gone on to better things than he did. (No offence to Aberdeen etc.)

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16 hours ago, Farcity said:

Ralston? Are you serious?
He is one of the worst footballers I have ever seen. 

The lad's still only 20, and never had a serious run of top flight games.
He's only played 90 minutes for Celtic 5 times and was 18 (i think) for most of those.
So, I'd say it's a bit harsh to dub him among the worst footballers you've ever seen based on that.

I'm not saying he's the answer, or deserves a call up or anything like that. Just that we'll certainly be no worse off if he plays 30 odd games in the Scottish Prem this season, and there's the possibility he learns and develops into someone who might be useful.

I'd like to see Jack Hendry get away from Celtic Park for the same reason. His loan to Dundee went ok by all accounts. Rodgers seemed to think he had potential and gave him a decent bit of game time when he returned to Cetlic. He's not kicked a ball since Lennon came in tho I don't think. Not even on the bench once this season, and he'll not improve sitting in the stands.

I know it's fashionable to dub people awful and discard them.. most of the time you'll be 'right' doing that because there's only 11 players that can play for Scotland at any one time. But I for one hope both those players get away from Celtic Park, play blinders and become regulars for Scotland. Not because I have any affinity or connection to those two players, but because Scotland will be better off the more guys we have with successful careers.

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5 minutes ago, sbcmfc said:

You’ll have seen a lot more of McKenna than me.

The important thing for me would be he makes the right move. Somewhere where he can be challenged and progress, but get 1st team football.

Hate seeing talented young players go to play for u-23s in England and more often than not disappearing off the face of the earth.

Mark Reynolds probably stayed at Motherwell too long and stunted his development, I think he should’ve gone on to better things than he did. (No offence to Aberdeen etc.)

MCkenna is still a talented player with great potential. I think his next move will be to the Championship in england or if he is lucky a low end EPL team. Either way he needs to move now before its too late like Reynolds. 

 

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30 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

I'm not so sure about McKenna, I'm not in the camp who thinks he's pish because he hasn't performed any worse than anyone else in a Scotland shirt but I do  think he needs a move or he will stagnate at Aberdeen.

There was certainly interest from down south during the last window. 2-3 of the bigger Championship clubs were sniffing around, so I imagine a move is likely in the not too distant future, especially if he gets back to being a regular international starter.

McKenna seems steady. Does the basics well and is willing to stick his head on things. I look at Cooper the other night and think back to the Martin/Hanley days and doing the basics well and sticking your head on things seem like a massive step forwards. He's not world class, but he's decent and can get better.

I'd probably want Souttar to had down to the Championship rather than linger at Hearts, too. I feel like that'd do him good. Findlay looks like to move in that direction too. Wishing Bates would be getting some games tho. Going to Sheffield Wednesday on loan doesn't seem like a good choice to me. He's competing for a spot with their captain.. so.. unlikely to get on the pitch much, which is a shame.

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The past two games were very depressing.

A half-full stadium ; players who look overrated and unfit ; no structure or shape to a team, trying too much - jack of all formations, masters of none .

We have huge problems. We concede goals in almost every single match ; I believe we'll ship goals in every single game remaining in the group. We don't have a goal scorer. We don't create chances. How many shots on goal did we have in both games? Apart from the goal ; I can't recall us having another shot on target against Russia.

Clarke should be given time, but in previous times where up against very decent teams we would have at least made more of a fight of it ; we were severly outclassed in both games. It could have been about 5-1 on Friday if not for two super saves from Marshall ; Erokin deciding to place it rather than ram it home and Dzuba had another great chance. Belgium if they really wanted, could have at least racked up 6 goals if not more.

Belgium are if not the best team in the world, one of the best - but they weren't even in full flow on Monday and still managed to outclass us.

Who actually cares though? Years and years of stagnation. In the past international football was a reason to be proud/look forward to. People just accept we are shite, but there's no anger. So much for the 'passionate Scot' shite we spout about ourselves, we've been domesticated. We should be boycotting, demanding better from the authorities who run our game.

It is our national sport and we are in horrific shape.

And we don't have any excuses. Yes, our pool of players are very average but then again Northern Ireland, Iceland, Hungary, Albania have if not similar or worse resources than us ; yet have consistently achieved more than us in the past 4 years. Iceland - whilst they lost last night - still have a great chance of qualifying and they have a mixed bag of players ; there's no superstars - their keeper plays in Iceland ; Kari Arnason ex Aberdeen is still playing and the rest of them are playing in Scandinavia, lower leagues of England, Russia, Belgium etc. NI even more so - their team had Conor Washington ; Steven Davis ; Niall McGinn in it on Monday.

They were/are both well coached sides. They do what they are good at and we need to get back to that. There is no reason at all that we shouldn't be at the same level as NI. Even though they lost on Monday, I had that one on the lappy and whilst you could see the Germans were a better side ; NI dug in, they created chances and were unlucky not score. The performance of us vs Belgium was night and day.

We lack desire too. Iceland and NI both get fired up and give everything. And yes, passion etc is a bit over-played ; but no one looks like they give a hoot once its all done and then they are back to their clubs.

Only positives I can see are the final three games are a chance to get some momentum going for the Playoffs - I can't see us taking 9pts at present.

The playoffs are going to be a hell of an ask ;but who knows football can change in 6 months. I thought McLeish was a disaster but that Albania win was one of the finest nights I've seen and when do Scotland ever win 4-0 away ; although it was all pished away with that start in Kazakhstan 6 months later. Who knows maybe in 6 months we'll have slayed Bulgaria and beaten Serbia with a Stephen O'Donnell late winner! Although I doubt it.

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1 hour ago, Third Lanark said:

Think the Germans once did something similar. 4-3-3 does seem to be the modern way though slightly different from the old 4-3-3 with 2 strikers and one orthodox winger.

Aye it's a 451 masquerading as a 433

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4 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

MCkenna is still a talented player with great potential. I think his next move will be to the Championship in england or if he is lucky a low end EPL team. Either way he needs to move now before its too late like Reynolds. 

 

A good championship team would be best imo, chance for him to develop some more before being thrown in at the deep end that is the epl.

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So it's been a bit of depressing double header but we should still be optimistic imo. We have to take the positives and look to see what can be done to make us better. 

GK - Marshall is a decent goalkeeper and wasn't really to blame for the goals we conceded. He should be good for a few years to come

Rb- o donnell doesn't look good enough for international football. We should be trying to get Ryan Fredericks of West ham in as he would be a massive upgrade.

Cb - McKenna and souttar should be back when fit but are they any better than cooper or mulgrew, personally I would happy keep mulgrew. We really could do with better centre backs, I think when fit Hanley should be given another crack with Scotland. Hopefully Ryan porteous can develop into an international class defender. Sadly though it's a real problem position and unless we see an upcoming centre back break through then we could be fucked for a few years at least. McKenna and souttar are still young but it's hard to judge if they are good enough to step up in class.

Lb - we are well stocked there and the possibility of maybe placing Tierney there and putting Robertson at rb or midfield is a possibility. Robertson has taking a bit of slagging recently but I still believe he's a top full back and we are lucky to have him. 

Rw- Forrest doesn't really pull out enough good performances to warrant being first choice, I suppose that could be said of most Scotland players tbf. It would be good if we could see more of the performances that pretty much single handedly won us our play off. I think it's time to give Johnston or Snodgrass a run on the right wing and see if they improve it while keeping Forrest in the loop with the hope of improvement.

Lw - we should persevere with Fraser although we should look to bring in a young winger like Johnston or McLennan for experience. Fraser hasn't exactly been brilliant and I would of hoped for more from him considering how good he's been in the epl.

Cm- we have good options here although you wouldn't think so over the last two games or more. I think we look a better side with Christie or Armstrong starting. I would like to see mctominay keeping his place in the team. This position is strong potentially as we have Turnbull and gilmour coming through as well and the fact that Christie,mctominay and mcginn are all relatively young. We should be making this position of strength work for us more but are not, our midfield on paper should be better than most other countries but we don't seem to getting the best out of it. I hoping Clarke can address this and get the best out what should be our strongest asset.

St - mcburnie doesn't look good enough tbh, thankfully we will have Griffith's back soon or should do. I think we looked a much better side when Griffith's played so I would like to see him get back the spot up front. We should be looking to tempt karlan grant to Scotland as he could be a long term front man and provide short term cover for Griffith's. If Lawrence shankland could move up a level and start scoring goals there then we might be able to get him involved as well. I wouldn't mind Steven fletcher coming back as well.

It's a tough time to be a Scotland fan but I don't think it's all doom and gloom. We need to give Clarke a proper chance to change things. He's got three winnable games to get momentum going for the play offs and that's really what he will be judged on. With Scotland I believe it's a mental problem more than player problem. We have shown glimpses over the years of how well we can play for example away to Albania 4 nil or beating Croatia home and away. Strength in depth is also a problem as when we lose a couple of key players we tend not have a decent back up as shown with the striker position. 

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