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Our "big players"


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I’m tired of the xxxxx should start next game after the appear to impress in 25 minute substitution cameos then they get their chance and are as missing as the man they’ve replaced. 

Fact is we are not anywhere near good enough ability wise. Many of our players are lucky to be making a healthy living out of a sport that has better players than them earning less. 

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13 minutes ago, Dalgety Bay TA said:

We are a team who, in a lot of games, are going to be under pressure for fair bits of the game.

IMO McTominay isn't the defensive player you need in there. Neither is Armstrong. Neither was Kenny McLean last night. Our midfield, supposedly our strongest area, well no supposedly, it is, is suffering from trying to fit all the players in there and not actually looking at the balance of who is there.

McTominay is a good player IMO, will get better, can pass a ball, gets about the park, actually has a shot on him. But because he is a big lad people assume he is the defensive option. 

We need someone like a Scott Brown, who could break up the oppositions play. Closest we have to it in the current squad is probably Ryan Jack. Is he a better footballer than say McGregor or McLean or McTominay? Probably not. But would be do the solid defensive midfield role better than them? Probably yes. 

At the moment we are going down the England route of sticking Gerrard and Lampard in centre of the park because they are both great players. Who's going to defend though? And for us, who will be under pressure, we need at least one defensive, solid player in that midfield. By all means play a passer like McTominay or McGregor or McLean beside him but don't play the both of them and leave out the defensive player we need to protect our already shaky back four.

You're correct, neither is an out and out destroyer. But Both have/do play as part of a double 6 for their clubs.

Not sure the Lampard/Gerrard comparison is valid, since they were 2 100% forward minded players trying to play in a central 2. We've looking at a midfield 3 made up of a number 10 and 2 box to box types. Apples and oranges a bit.

If you're playing a single anchor in a 3 man midfield, then they probably need to be that destroyer (kante) type, because they've so much work to get thru, with just some support from 2 other center mids. The defensive responsibility is mostly on them. Brown could do this,, so that say Morrison could go play more.

A double 6 lets either one be a box to box player at any given moment, with the other dropping in to cover. That can be a really useful weapon as it makes it more difficult for the opponent to pick up our runners. It also needs the two to develop an understanding, which is something a lot of the squad lack right now, with a lot of changes to personnel happening recently.

I can see a use for Jack in that role maybe in games like last night, maybe even in Russia, where it feels like it would have been sensible to commit a man marker to Golovin given how central he is to them creating opportunities. This is part of using the squad well tho, right? Like using Tierney at right back against teams like Belgium, but not against Cyrpus. It also remains to be see whether Jack can cut it at a level above the Scottish Prem. He's had the odd good European game, but he's not been tested on the international stage. One of those to look at over the coming 4 matches i guess.

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I think we have seen in flashes what these players can do and that is the most frustrating thing, and part of the reason so many folk get angry and frustrated at the performances. 

As soon as things aren’t going their way, they retreat into their shell and lose all confidence not only in themselves but their teammates.

We need a true leader out on the pitch.

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1 hour ago, andyD said:

 

To me it feels like we have an ok 11 for the most part.

Griffiths
[Johnston/Burke/etc] - Christie - Fraser
Armstrong - McTominay
Robertson - McKenna - Mulgrew - [Tierney/O'Donnell]
Marhsall

The problem is there's not much quality behind those players if they're not available.

This is where the small population argument has some weight. Having only 5 million people certainly doesn't mean we can't produce quality players. And in fact we do have a lot of good players right now. The problem is once we get a few injuries, we don't have the depth to cover for them.

Last night, we looked like a very accomplished side in the middle of the park, but we were just too weak at the back to defend anything at all. 

With everyone fit, I actually think we aren't too far behind the team of 2007. But missing Griffiths, Tierney and McKenna really does seem to have a big impact on our ability to score and avoid being scored against. 

With everyone fit, we have a good team. I genuinely believe that.

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2 hours ago, andyD said:

You're correct, neither is an out and out destroyer. But Both have/do play as part of a double 6 for their clubs.

Not sure the Lampard/Gerrard comparison is valid, since they were 2 100% forward minded players trying to play in a central 2. We've looking at a midfield 3 made up of a number 10 and 2 box to box types. Apples and oranges a bit.

If you're playing a single anchor in a 3 man midfield, then they probably need to be that destroyer (kante) type, because they've so much work to get thru, with just some support from 2 other center mids. The defensive responsibility is mostly on them. Brown could do this,, so that say Morrison could go play more.

A double 6 lets either one be a box to box player at any given moment, with the other dropping in to cover. That can be a really useful weapon as it makes it more difficult for the opponent to pick up our runners. It also needs the two to develop an understanding, which is something a lot of the squad lack right now, with a lot of changes to personnel happening recently.

I can see a use for Jack in that role maybe in games like last night, maybe even in Russia, where it feels like it would have been sensible to commit a man marker to Golovin given how central he is to them creating opportunities. This is part of using the squad well tho, right? Like using Tierney at right back against teams like Belgium, but not against Cyrpus. It also remains to be see whether Jack can cut it at a level above the Scottish Prem. He's had the odd good European game, but he's not been tested on the international stage. One of those to look at over the coming 4 matches i guess.

You have lost me a fair bit with talk of double 6's and the likes.

IMO if you are playing a 2 in a 4231 then one of them has to be a real defensive minded player. The other could be a passer but have some defensive ability. 

If you are playing a 433 then in most games one of the 3 has to be strong defensively. Bar games against likes of Gibraltar or San Marino. We have seen in the past that plenty of other teams above the absolute minnows have enough about them to make it nuts for us to think we are good enough not to give our back 4 some sort of protection. Thats the case which ever midfield set up we go far, we need someone to shield the defence.

I am not sure if Jack would be the solution, I only gave him as an example as he is the only really defensively minded midfield player in the current squad. Again maybe we don't have any other options for that sort of role.

The Lampard/Gerrard thing was purely on the basis of we are trying to get our all best midfield players on the pitch and expecting some of them to do jobs that they aren't used to doing rather than working out what is the best set up for the team and then picking the most suitable players to perform those roles.

Edited by Dalgety Bay TA
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2 hours ago, andyD said:

yes

The point is with Cooper is that those of us who have actually seen him at Championship level haven't particularly rated him.  Its nothing personal and he obviously has some good leadership qualities which is an asset but they don't compensate for the fact  that but based on his performances for Leeds he doesn't look like an international class centre half.

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5 minutes ago, Dalgety Bay TA said:

You have lost me a fair bit with talk of double 6's and the likes.

IMO if you are playing a 2 in a 4231 then one of them has to be a real defensive minded player. The other could be a passer but have some defensive ability. 

If you are playing a 433 then in most games one of the 3 has to be strong defensively. Bar games against likes of Gibraltar or San Marino. We have seen in the past that plenty of other teams above the absolute minnows have enough about them to make it nuts for us to think we are good enough not to give our back 4 some sort of protection. Thats the case which ever midfield set up we go far, we need someone to shield the defence.

I am not sure if Jack would be the solution, I only gave him as an example as he is the only really defensively minded midfield player in the current squad. Again maybe we don't have any other options for that sort of role.

The Lampard/Gerrard thing was purely on the basis of we are trying to get our all best midfield players on the pitch and expecting some of them to do jobs that they aren't used to doing rather than working out what is the best set up for the team and then picking the most suitable players to perform those roles.

 

Yeah, so the 433 type is fairly common in the premier league. Liverpool with Firminho, Leicester with Ndidi, Man City with Rodri or Fernandinho.

Double 6 with 2 dynamic players would be like.. Man Utd with McTominay and Pogba or Everton with Delph and Andre Gomez. Wolves are a bit more extreme in that none of their 3 center mids are 'proper' defensive players. Neves, Dendoncker and Moutinho are all able to rotate to whatever role is needed.

Maybe I'm asking a bit much of Armstrong and McTominay. That's perfectly fair. But Armstrong's played that 6 role plenty of times along side Brown at Celtic, and he has the energy and awareness for it. And McTominay is literally doing it right now for Man Utd.

Proper defensive mids seem to not fair well done us lately tho.. Kevin McDonald and Graeme Shinnie, both look like their international careers are over. Is either worse than Jack? I don't think so. Brown had plenty of detractors in the years before he quit the national team too. Once he was gone i think a few realised what he'd been doing all those years. 

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4 hours ago, andyD said:

It does feel like we have some players who aren't as good as we hoped they were.

Robertson, i think dropped in form the moment he became captain. It's a shame, cos he's a good guy, but if it's negatively affecting his performance to be captain, then maybe for his own good he needs to pass on the armband. I agree with Wanderer tho, his 2nd half was much better and he looked more like the Robertson of old. That's the player we need to see more of.

Mulgrew was mostly decent over the two games. Yep, got done for the 3rd last night, but the accusation to level at him there is "you're not as good as Alderweireld". Which is kind of obvious and uncontested. No one we have is as good as Alderweireld.

McTominay has looked ok over the two games. He wasn't really helped out by those around him in either game, with McGregor disappearing against Russia and McLean seemingly not wanting the responsibility of marking anyone. He'll be a good player, but at time last night he looked like exactly what he is, a young player that could use support rather than the weight being on his shoulders already.

McGregor disappeared for most of the Russia game, and did the same for long periods of the Belgium game. Such a shame because he has talent. Maybe he's burnt out, but this isn't the first couple of times it's happened. Starting to wonder if he's a confidence player. With Celtic he knows he's always one of the best players on the park and so plays with confidence and freedom. At international level it's a different story and it seems he might need some mental shift in order to produce his best for us.

McLean, sad to say, but he just doesn't look good enough to me. Came on and put us under pressure against Russia. Was solely responsible for the 2nd goal, just not marking his man. He was wasn't paying any attention and was stood on the penalty spot as Vermaelen knocked it in from inside the 6 yard box. I might be paranoid, but he then seemed to make runs to take him away from men, thereby dumping them onto someone else, particularly De Bruyne. That to me is hugely worrying.

Snodgrass, was ok, got more involved that Forrest did against Russia. Tired towards the end and got a bit sloppy, but still. Freekicks were a bit disappointing tho.

Armstrong.. breath of fresh air when he came on. Energy, drive, much like Christie in the Russia game he came in and made a difference. Makes a great case for him starting.

Phillips, still not a striker.

Forrest seems like he may have reverted to form for us. So could be time to look at others, be that Johnston or Hastie or Burke or back to Snodgrass when the game suits it.

To me it feels like we have an ok 11 for the most part.

Griffiths
[Johnston/Burke/etc] - Christie - Fraser
Armstrong - McTominay
Robertson - McKenna - Mulgrew - [Tierney/O'Donnell]
Marhsall

The problem is there's not much quality behind those players if they're not available.

Would say you are pretty much spot on with your assessment of some of the players over the two games. I am sure it was Cooper who was marking Vermaelen though. He was actually playing him offside and for some reason or other decided to run on to the wrong side of him. Cooper for me was poor positionaly in both games, as was O'Donnell. Even the first goal for Russia on Friday, Cooper runs from his position towards the ball leaving a massive gap in defence where unfortunately for Robbo the ball ended up. Russias second goal O'Donnell is miles out of position and has  no pace to get back. And the fourth goal against Belgium he attempts to cover for Cooper who again is like a magnet to the ball and leaves a massive gap at Right Back. It is mistakes that are killing us, positional mistakes, poor decision making and a lack of willingness to track runners. The good thing is this can be fixed, but we need the right people in key positions to fix it. Desperately need someone who can organise a defence. And also need someone to give balance defensively to midfield. And then doing the basics like tracking back and picking up your man would help. The players need to start taking responsibility. 

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Lets remember the quality of the opposition compared to us - Belgium are world No 1 side in the rankings. We have not come close to qualifying for anything for over a decade now. Russia were World Cup quarter-finalists. Both sides are a class (or three) above us.

However, my gripe is we are no longer seemingly tough to beat. Over the twenty odd years since we last qualified we have played the very best teams and been very tough to beat losing many games by an odd goal or even beating top notch sides. Sadly, we have drifted away from this level too which is my big worry. If I am being honest our chances of qualifying ended in Kazakhstan and its always been about the play-off route. Clarke realises that now too and hopefully he can use these next few games to beef up our defence and instil a little bit more confidence and self-belief with wins against the weaker sides in our group. We need to try to remain positive for the play-off route was always going to be the likeliest route to qualification.

I do agree with those that say we need a ball-winner/retainer in midfield. A tough Scott Brown-type as the glue to make the ball stick in midfield. Somebody to build attacks around in midfield who can hold the ball and feed our attacking midfielders as we break. The problem is I don't see that type of player available to us at the moment. We also need to beef up our defence and hopefully the return of McKenna will help in that area and we need to re-examine our right-back options.

Keep the faith.

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8 hours ago, wanderer said:

Think this is probably one of the "bonuses" that our final two games are Cyprus away and then home to Kazakhstan, and I can see him taking the squad out to Cyprus a day or two earlier than he usually would to get  a kind to team bonding get together in the sun away from the Scottish media, with a eye to try get moral up ahead of the play off's.

I actually think we won't beat Cyprus

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1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

However, my gripe is we are no longer seemingly tough to beat. Over the twenty odd years since we last qualified we have played the very best teams and been very tough to beat losing many games by an odd goal or even beating top notch sides

Exactly, even managers we've had that supporters aren't particularly find of, still had great results/performances at home, against great teams. Jeez, not only did Levein manage to get out a great performance at home to Spain, we even had a semi-respectable performance against Brazil at the Emirates

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I made the bet with Chripper or dark knight that is keeping him of the board (or is it) because he was doing my head in. Since he has stopped posting i've seen a few comments from other people that are similar to what he has suggested. Maybe the guy wasn't far away with his posts but my issue with him was how repetitive he was. However, his desire to have McTominay's babies has come back to bite him in the arse.........so far.

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8 hours ago, macy37 said:

I’m tired of the xxxxx should start next game after the appear to impress in 25 minute substitution cameos then they get their chance and are as missing as the man they’ve replaced. 

Fact is we are not anywhere near good enough ability wise. Many of our players are lucky to be making a healthy living out of a sport that has better players than them earning less. 

It's annoying me too.

 

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9 hours ago, andyD said:

It does feel like we have some players who aren't as good as we hoped they were.

Robertson, i think dropped in form the moment he became captain. It's a shame, cos he's a good guy, but if it's negatively affecting his performance to be captain, then maybe for his own good he needs to pass on the armband. I agree with Wanderer tho, his 2nd half was much better and he looked more like the Robertson of old. That's the player we need to see more of.

Mulgrew was mostly decent over the two games. Yep, got done for the 3rd last night, but the accusation to level at him there is "you're not as good as Alderweireld". Which is kind of obvious and uncontested. No one we have is as good as Alderweireld.

McTominay has looked ok over the two games. He wasn't really helped out by those around him in either game, with McGregor disappearing against Russia and McLean seemingly not wanting the responsibility of marking anyone. He'll be a good player, but at time last night he looked like exactly what he is, a young player that could use support rather than the weight being on his shoulders already.

McGregor disappeared for most of the Russia game, and did the same for long periods of the Belgium game. Such a shame because he has talent. Maybe he's burnt out, but this isn't the first couple of times it's happened. Starting to wonder if he's a confidence player. With Celtic he knows he's always one of the best players on the park and so plays with confidence and freedom. At international level it's a different story and it seems he might need some mental shift in order to produce his best for us.

McLean, sad to say, but he just doesn't look good enough to me. Came on and put us under pressure against Russia. Was solely responsible for the 2nd goal, just not marking his man. He was wasn't paying any attention and was stood on the penalty spot as Vermaelen knocked it in from inside the 6 yard box. I might be paranoid, but he then seemed to make runs to take him away from men, thereby dumping them onto someone else, particularly De Bruyne. That to me is hugely worrying.

Snodgrass, was ok, got more involved that Forrest did against Russia. Tired towards the end and got a bit sloppy, but still. Freekicks were a bit disappointing tho.

Armstrong.. breath of fresh air when he came on. Energy, drive, much like Christie in the Russia game he came in and made a difference. Makes a great case for him starting.

Phillips, still not a striker.

Forrest seems like he may have reverted to form for us. So could be time to look at others, be that Johnston or Hastie or Burke or back to Snodgrass when the game suits it.

To me it feels like we have an ok 11 for the most part.

Griffiths
[Johnston/Burke/etc] - Christie - Fraser
Armstrong - McTominay
Robertson - McKenna - Mulgrew - [Tierney/O'Donnell]
Marhsall

The problem is there's not much quality behind those players if they're not available.

I agree with a great deal of this. However, I would more heavily criticise Mulgrew, who doesn't control the defence to the extent an experienced player like him should.

 

McGregor is knackered but he also has not looked all that good in a Scotland shirt in his appearances. Must do better

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17 hours ago, bazmidd said:

 I am sure it was Cooper who was marking Vermaelen though. He was actually playing him offside and for some reason or other decided to run on to the wrong side of him.

Cooper was on Vertongen, and yeah, horribly positioned and Vertongen would almost certainly have scored if Vermaelen hadn't..

scoBel2Start.png

scoBel2End.png

At least everyone else knows where their man is.. McLean's just happy that at some point he was stood near Vermaelen. ffs.

 

Edited by andyD
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1 hour ago, andyD said:

Cooper was on Vertongen, and yeah, horribly positioned and Vertongen would almost certainly have scored if Vermaelen hadn't..

scoBel2Start.png

scoBel2End.png

At least everyone else knows where their man is.. McLean's just happy that at some point he was stood near Vermaelen. ffs.

 

It's fair to say McLean lost his man. But, also, look at O'Donnell - the actual defender! Outside the box, marking no one. McLean is basically covering for being a man down in defence. 

Too often, over both games, O'Donnell got caught too far up the pitch. Which he even admitted to himself. I watched him a few times off the ball and he was always a good 5 or 10 yards further forward than Robertson. You need discipline against Belgium. He was playing more like a winger than a full back.

I'd absolutely put Tierney RB. Yes, his attacking threat is subdued a little, but he would defend a hell of a lot better than anyone else, which is sometimes what we need

Edited by Tartan blood
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1 hour ago, Tartan blood said:

But, also, look at O'Donnell - the actual defender! Outside the box, marking no one. McLean is basically covering for being a man down in defence.

So.. this is either 100% misleading, or you just didn't notice.

We marked up man to man every set piece, with the same people marking the same people. It was clearly something that Clarke had gone thru before the game, giving everyone their assignment.

O'Donnell's man was Dendoncker. If you watch the corner immediately before he's right with Dendoncker in the area. During this play, Dendonker has drifted deeper and is outside the area, you can see him to the right of the ref in the 1st pic. So O'Donnell is in the right place to pick him up if he makes a run, close him if he gets the ball or to pick up a loose ball from a clearing header if the ball goes into the area. O'Donnell is 100% in the right place doing exactly what he should be doing.

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19 hours ago, Lairdyfaeinverclyde said:

I made the bet with Chripper or dark knight that is keeping him of the board (or is it) because he was doing my head in. Since he has stopped posting i've seen a few comments from other people that are similar to what he has suggested. Maybe the guy wasn't far away with his posts but my issue with him was how repetitive he was. However, his desire to have McTominay's babies has come back to bite him in the arse.........so far.

Yeh I didn't mind his actual points he made, but he would manage to turn every discussion into them which was frustrating. 

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