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Soooooo.. The play off then.


bonny78

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Armenia just beat Bosnia 4-2 which means Finland are now in a phenomenal position to qualify automatically and that Bulgaria are far more likely to be headed to Hampden in March. 

With Portugal beating Serbia yesterday and should Sweden beat Norway today then the play offs are looking far more clear cut. Whether we can beat beat Bulgaria at home is one thing but on current evidence we are going to need to win the draw for home advantage for the 'final' too.

 

 

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On a more depressing note that result, giving Finland a fantastic opportunity to automatically qualify got me thinking to the list of nations who have now made it to a tournament since we last did and its horrendous reading. Despite counting to have the highest pro rata per head attendee of our domestic football the footballing authorities continue to fail us time and again.

The list below are all countries who routinely have been in the same or similar pots to us and doesn't even include the likes of Denmark, Sweden, Serbia and the Republic of Ireland who have all made it to several tournaments. 

 

Iceland

Wales

Northern Ireland

Hungary

Romania

Norway 

Slovenia

Bulgaria 

Latvia

Austria

Albania

Slovakia

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5 hours ago, Jacques Hunt said:

I firmly believe our teams have mental barriers to deal with and Clarke mentioned it after Friday game. ( I am not allowed to use the word ‘alluded’due to a previous post which upset a reader.)

I think Southgate recognised it in his English team and brought people in to help. We need to too IMO.

That's the perfect time to use the word as he did allude to it, he didn't actually say it. 👍😄

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2 hours ago, romanticscot said:

Sadly home advantage for us doesn't mean what it used to. 

Well the crumb of comfort here must be that Bulgaria is on similar level to Albania and Israel. Or indeed worse given Israel are doing fine in their group and Bulgaria are bottom.

Scotland won two home games this time last year with Alex McLeish managing. As long as Serbia is kept out of the equation the two teams Scotland would potentially play in the play offs will be a step down on Russia level.

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9 hours ago, Sheach said:

I've included a lengthy writeup on the Playoff picture in my match preview for tomorrow's game, hope it makes sense! 

Interesting. Does this mean that if we lost play off semi final would still be at Hampden if we win draw to play final at home? So could be Bulgaria v Serbia at Hampden in final. Only a couple of days to make arrangements for final.

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45 minutes ago, ironbrew said:

Interesting. Does this mean that if we lost play off semi final would still be at Hampden if we win draw to play final at home? So could be Bulgaria v Serbia at Hampden in final. Only a couple of days to make arrangements for final.

No. A Bulgaria v Serbia Final would be in either Bulgaria or Serbia.

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19 hours ago, Dogbiscuit said:

I believe that Scotland has taken the fullest force of England's psychological shaming and humiliation over the years as they have perceived Scotland as their biggest threat.

That rugby match was a good example of Scotland ALMOST beating England. As was our last football match against them. I would argue that these are prime examples of us lacking belief.

Sorry I dont buy that at all.  I dont think for one minute England perceive Scotland as their biggest threat. I dont even think England perceive us as a threat. 

I definitely think we have  a serious  physiological problem and lack belief, but I dont think politics is the cause. It may indirectly have an impact but it is lazy to attribute our problem to the constitutional set up.   

Why were we so successful in the 70’s/80’s, we didn't even have devolution then ?

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18 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Sorry I dont buy that at all.  I dont think for one minute England perceive Scotland as their biggest threat. I dont even think England perceive us as a threat. 

I definitely think we have  a serious  physiological problem and lack belief, but I dont think politics is the cause. It may indirectly have an impact but it is lazy to attribute our problem to the constitutional set up.   

Why were we so successful in the 70’s/80’s, we didn't even have devolution then ?

Previously it was only on the sporting field we could impress Engurland. Now we have our own parliament, a totally different vision for the future and we really don't give a toss about them. Noticed on the last trip to Wembley fans mixing in pubs which I put down to us ditching our chip on the shoulder attitude. Our lack of success is a lack of talent lets not over complicate it.

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40 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Sorry I dont buy that at all.  I dont think for one minute England perceive Scotland as their biggest threat. I dont even think England perceive us as a threat. 

I definitely think we have  a serious  physiological problem and lack belief, but I dont think politics is the cause. It may indirectly have an impact but it is lazy to attribute our problem to the constitutional set up.   

Why were we so successful in the 70’s/80’s, we didn't even have devolution then ?

I do feel there has been in the past attempts to undermine Scotland as losers and "too wee too stupid" etc etc which has contributed to our current mentality but the Scottish press are also accountable!  For perfect examples go on the Daily Record website right now and look at some of the disparaging headlines.  One headline makes out Belgium's Tielemens is saying we're worse than San Marino.  At no point in the article does he actually say this, he simply states that he expects us to be just as defensive but that Belgium would get more space to play.  Another headline supposedly quotes Philippe Albert stating this is the "worst" Scotland team ever.  Once you read the article he actually says its one of the weakest he has ever seen with only Robertson and McTominay as stand outs.

Players seeing these headlines but not reading the articles to get the full context would undoubting get disheartened and lack confidence!

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2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Sorry I dont buy that at all.  I dont think for one minute England perceive Scotland as their biggest threat. I dont even think England perceive us as a threat. 

I definitely think we have  a serious  physiological problem and lack belief, but I dont think politics is the cause. It may indirectly have an impact but it is lazy to attribute our problem to the constitutional set up.   

Why were we so successful in the 70’s/80’s, we didn't even have devolution then ?

Successful?!? None of those Scotland teams got past the group stages of a tournament finals, despite being rammed full of talent. Ireland reaching the quarter finals of the WC in 1994 can be termed 'successful'. Scotland (despite having better players over the years) have never achieved anything close to that. 

We had the same problem then as we have now. Decent players (individually) but collectively they shite it when put under pressure.

 

You also mentioned the rugby comeback in the 6 nations as a sign of Scotland's confidence... The opposite is true! Another defeat (or draw in that case) snatched from the jaws of victory.

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3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Sorry I dont buy that at all.  I dont think for one minute England perceive Scotland as their biggest threat. I dont even think England perceive us as a threat. 

I definitely think we have  a serious  physiological problem and lack belief, but I dont think politics is the cause. It may indirectly have an impact but it is lazy to attribute our problem to the constitutional set up.   

Why were we so successful in the 70’s/80’s, we didn't even have devolution then ?

We weren't successful. We had better players at the time but never even made it past the group stage of any tournament, often due to calamitous results.

I would suggest that it's 'lazy', and self defeating to say that we definitely have a 'serious psychological problem' but to assume that we've mainly just invented it ourselves.

 

2 hours ago, teecee- said:

Previously it was only on the sporting field we could impress Engurland. Now we have our own parliament, a totally different vision for the future and we really don't give a toss about them. Noticed on the last trip to Wembley fans mixing in pubs which I put down to us ditching our chip on the shoulder attitude. Our lack of success is a lack of talent lets not over complicate it.

See above, we had great players in previous decades but still never achieved anything on a competitive level beyond qualifying for tournaments. And if we really don't give a toss about England then why are they regularly referenced on this forum, usually as some sort of bench mark of how things are done?

 

2 hours ago, kwhitelaw said:

I do feel there has been in the past attempts to undermine Scotland as losers and "too wee too stupid" etc etc which has contributed to our current mentality but the Scottish press are also accountable!  For perfect examples go on the Daily Record website right now and look at some of the disparaging headlines.  One headline makes out Belgium's Tielemens is saying we're worse than San Marino.  At no point in the article does he actually say this, he simply states that he expects us to be just as defensive but that Belgium would get more space to play.  Another headline supposedly quotes Philippe Albert stating this is the "worst" Scotland team ever.  Once you read the article he actually says its one of the weakest he has ever seen with only Robertson and McTominay as stand outs.

Players seeing these headlines but not reading the articles to get the full context would undoubting get disheartened and lack confidence!

Absolutely. Scotland is full of people who subscribe to the British establishment view. This is the biggest problem we face, one from within. And the Scottish press are barely even Scottish. And the players reading this stuff is just the tip of the iceberg. If you have a whole stadium of people who have directly, or indirectly been regularly exposed to this viewpoint, and furthermore a whole nation of people, then it's no surprise that any kind of international success is affected by it. I would imagine that every one of us, despite supporting Scotland, has at least at one point made a joke to a non-supporter about how shit we are just to conform to social convention.

 

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22 hours ago, Dogbiscuit said:

I believe that Scotland has taken the fullest force of England's psychological shaming and humiliation over the years as they have perceived Scotland as their biggest threat.

That rugby match was a good example of Scotland ALMOST beating England. As was our last football match against them. I would argue that these are prime examples of us lacking belief.

Biggest threat to what ?

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1 hour ago, Dave78 said:

Successful?!? None of those Scotland teams got past the group stages of a tournament finals, despite being rammed full of talent. Ireland reaching the quarter finals of the WC in 1994 can be termed 'successful'. Scotland (despite having better players over the years) have never achieved anything close to that. 

We had the same problem then as we have now. Decent players (individually) but collectively they shite it when put under pressure.

 

You also mentioned the rugby comeback in the 6 nations as a sign of Scotland's confidence... The opposite is true! Another defeat (or draw in that case) snatched from the jaws of victory.

Aye, the players of yesteryear also failed miserably when it came to the crunch!

The first World Cup which Ireland qualified for was Italia 90, they went on to reach the quarter finals. Think USA 94 might have actually  been the last 16 'only' (but again through the groups). Since then (off the top of my head), they got through the 2002 WC group and certainly the last Euros.

You can pretty much go through every country in Europe, and at some point they have reached the latter stages of a major tournament.

It truly is utterly depressing.

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21 minutes ago, Daz1982 said:

Aye, the players of yesteryear also failed miserably when it came to the crunch!

The first World Cup which Ireland qualified for was Italia 90, they went on to reach the quarter finals. Think USA 94 might have actually  been the last 16 'only' (but again through the groups). Since then (off the top of my head), they got through the 2002 WC group and certainly the last Euros.

You can pretty much go through every country in Europe, and at some point they have reached the latter stages of a major tournament.

It truly is utterly depressing.

We are sooooo shiiiteeee

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4 hours ago, teecee- said:

Previously it was only on the sporting field we could impress Engurland. Now we have our own parliament, a totally different vision for the future and we really don't give a toss about them. Noticed on the last trip to Wembley fans mixing in pubs which I put down to us ditching our chip on the shoulder attitude. Our lack of success is a lack of talent lets not over complicate it.

I think there is more to it than lack of talent. Granted, we dont have a squad  of world class players but they should be performing better. 

3 hours ago, kwhitelaw said:

I do feel there has been in the past attempts to undermine Scotland as losers and "too wee too stupid" etc etc which has contributed to our current mentality but the Scottish press are also accountable!  For perfect examples go on the Daily Record website right now and look at some of the disparaging headlines.  One headline makes out Belgium's Tielemens is saying we're worse than San Marino.  At no point in the article does he actually say this, he simply states that he expects us to be just as defensive but that Belgium would get more space to play.  Another headline supposedly quotes Philippe Albert stating this is the "worst" Scotland team ever.  Once you read the article he actually says its one of the weakest he has ever seen with only Robertson and McTominay as stand outs.

Players seeing these headlines but not reading the articles to get the full context would undoubting get disheartened and lack confidence!

I completely agree. The media and their constant criticism does not help at all. 

1 hour ago, Dave78 said:

Successful?!? None of those Scotland teams got past the group stages of a tournament finals, despite being rammed full of talent. Ireland reaching the quarter finals of the WC in 1994 can be termed 'successful'. Scotland (despite having better players over the years) have never achieved anything close to that. 

We had the same problem then as we have now. Decent players (individually) but collectively they shite it when put under pressure.

 

You also mentioned the rugby comeback in the 6 nations as a sign of Scotland's confidence... The opposite is true! Another defeat (or draw in that case) snatched from the jaws of victory.

They were successful in comparison to where we have been the last 20 years and are regularly touted on here as being the glory years. We have actually gone backwards in terms of qualification since devolution, surely that should have been an inspiration. 

Re the rugby, it is possible for a team to simply run out of mental stamina in a game like that. 

I tend to agree with most of what you post on here Dave but I think we will need to agree to disagree  on this. When we gain independence and there is, in time, a clear improvement in the teams performance nothing will give me greater pleasure than to wheel myself on here to be tarred and feathered by you and dogbiscuit 🙂

1 hour ago, Dogbiscuit said:

We weren't successful. We had better players at the time but never even made it past the group stage of any tournament, often due to calamitous results.

I would suggest that it's 'lazy', and self defeating to say that we definitely have a 'serious psychological problem' but to assume that we've mainly just invented it ourselves.

 

See above, we had great players in previous decades but still never achieved anything on a competitive level beyond qualifying for tournaments. And if we really don't give a toss about England then why are they regularly referenced on this forum, usually as some sort of bench mark of how things are. 

 

I did not say we invented it , I said I do not believe our poor performances and mental problem is purely down to being in a political union with the UK.

I genuinely feel there are a number of reasons for our lack of success and physiological blockage, year after year of achieving  absolutely nothing in itself must ravage confidence as will the constant negativity that surrounds the team, it is a vicious circle and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. 

I still have confidence that Steve Clarke can motivate these players, I am certainly  not self defeatist, quite the opposite. 

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2 hours ago, Nobby said:

Biggest threat to what ?

A general sense of superiority and ownership.

 

15 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I think there is more to it than lack of talent. Granted, we dont have a squad  of world class players but they should be performing better. 

I completely agree. The media and their constant criticism does not help at all. 

They were successful in comparison to where we have been the last 20 years and are regularly touted on here as being the glory years. We have actually gone backwards in terms of qualification since devolution, surely that should have been an inspiration. 

Re the rugby, it is possible for a team to simply run out of mental stamina in a game like that. 

I tend to agree with most of what you post on here Dave but I think we will need to agree to disagree  on this. When we gain independence and there is, in time, a clear improvement in the teams performance nothing will give me greater pleasure than to wheel myself on here to be tarred and feathered by you and dogbiscuit 🙂

I did not say we invented it , I said I do not believe our poor performances and mental problem is purely down to being in a political union with the UK.

I genuinely feel there are a number of reasons for our lack of success and physiological blockage, year after year of achieving  absolutely nothing in itself must ravage confidence as will the constant negativity that surrounds the team, it is a vicious circle and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. 

I still have confidence that Steve Clarke can motivate these players, I am certainly  not self defeatist, quite the opposite. 

Well I didn't specifically say it was about being in the union. But I don't think it's a coincidence that a country that's not quite a country and is in the unusual position of being 'governed' by a neighbouring country suffers from a failure mentality. It's really not a normal position to be in in the first place. The British are well known for their psychological warfare so due to our position in relation to them (geographically, politically, socially, etc) I have no doubt that our national psyche bears the burden. An everyday example was on Friday at around 7pm I went on the BBC sport site to check our line up and there was nothing about the game. But of course, after suffering a disappointing defeat it was featured as the top story through into the next day.

I do agree with you that we're in a vicious cycle though. And I think the best starting point is to question the old narrative that we're shite and our players are shite and we're losers etc etc.

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On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 4:21 PM, magicTs said:

On a more depressing note that result, giving Finland a fantastic opportunity to automatically qualify got me thinking to the list of nations who have now made it to a tournament since we last did and its horrendous reading. Despite counting to have the highest pro rata per head attendee of our domestic football the footballing authorities continue to fail us time and again.

The list below are all countries who routinely have been in the same or similar pots to us and doesn't even include the likes of Denmark, Sweden, Serbia and the Republic of Ireland who have all made it to several tournaments. 

 

Iceland

Wales

Northern Ireland

Hungary

Romania

Norway 

Slovenia

Bulgaria 

Latvia

Austria

Albania

Slovakia

It's damning.

There shouldn't be anywhere to hide for the people who run the game in Scotland, but they get away with it.

A drastic shake-up of the game is required, but they don't seem interested in that.

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Am I correct in saying there are only 3 days between the play-off and the play-off final?

Leaving the fans less than 72 hours to book flights and accommodation and to travel?

Not to mention the host stadium preparation, security, ticket sales, etc... needing to be arranged by the host FA's.

 

 

 

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