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The_Dark_Knight

James Tavernier?

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50 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

Apparently he'll be eligible for Scotland if he's still with Rangers next year.

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-star-james-tavernier-soon-18893192

he was always eligible from a FIFA point of view  ie anyone with a british PP can play for any country within the UK - only schooling provides opt out of the UK internal agreement, so think it's heap of nonsense from a journalist 

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2 hours ago, euan2020 said:

he was always eligible from a FIFA point of view  ie anyone with a british PP can play for any country within the UK 

Are you sure about that? :blink:

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4 hours ago, Toepoke said:

Are you sure about that? :blink:

Yup - anyone eligible for any of UK countries can play for any of the UK countries cos we all carry the same passports (As far as FIFA is concerned)

that is purpose of  the gentlemans agreement, not to pick each others players - also why we could have picked Graham Le Seax, Matt Le Tissier cos they were channel islands

It's only due to the Home Nations making their own rules, (which i guess is contradicting myself - but from original FIFA rules they considered UK as one)

"

Home nations agreement[edit]

Due to the United Kingdom's position in world football as a sovereign state that has four national teams, there has been a series of additional agreements between national football associations of the United Kingdom; England (FA), Scotland (SFA), Wales (FAW) and Northern Ireland (IFA). The latest agreement came in 2010 and was ratified by FIFA.[31]

In 1990, Nigel Spackman wanted to be called up by Scotland during his time at Rangers F.C. through his Scottish grandfather. However at the time, the four British Associations did not choose to accept players without parents pertaining to the nation.[32] The Herald reported that "until recently that would have been enough to give him qualification to play for Scotland. But under an agreement by the four home associations it is not enough any more."

Edited by euan2020

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Any updated news of whether Ryan Fredericks might be available, Scottish grandfather I believe.  I'd like to think someone was keeping tabs on him and that he might be approached, we've not exactly got lots of options in that position.

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These articles really annoy me. The home nation teams can’t take advantage of these rules. The press know that but there’s still pieces like this every year. 

There’s more chance that you or I will play right back for Scotland than James Tavernier. 

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27 minutes ago, Super_Scotlandfan said:

These articles really annoy me. The home nation teams can’t take advantage of these rules. The press know that but there’s still pieces like this every year. 

There’s more chance that you or I will play right back for Scotland than James Tavernier. 

Yeah, this is really weak journalism. Not only does he show a lack of understanding of the situation, but he mentions the UK agreement and the fact the rules would need to be changed, without ever explicitly stating what that agreement is (5 years of schooling) or how a change to them would be affected. It's complete nonsense. 

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3 hours ago, euan2020 said:

Yup - anyone eligible for any of UK countries can play for any of the UK countries cos we all carry the same passports (As far as FIFA is concerned)

that is purpose of  the gentlemans agreement, not to pick each others players - also why we could have picked Graham Le Seax, Matt Le Tissier cos they were channel islands

It's only due to the Home Nations making their own rules, (which i guess is contradicting myself - but from original FIFA rules they considered UK as one)

"

Home nations agreement[edit]

Due to the United Kingdom's position in world football as a sovereign state that has four national teams, there has been a series of additional agreements between national football associations of the United Kingdom; England (FA), Scotland (SFA), Wales (FAW) and Northern Ireland (IFA). The latest agreement came in 2010 and was ratified by FIFA.[31]

In 1990, Nigel Spackman wanted to be called up by Scotland during his time at Rangers F.C. through his Scottish grandfather. However at the time, the four British Associations did not choose to accept players without parents pertaining to the nation.[32] The Herald reported that "until recently that would have been enough to give him qualification to play for Scotland. But under an agreement by the four home associations it is not enough any more."

I still don't think we could pick and choose even with the Home Nations agreement taken out of the equation. 

This is how FIFA define eligibility in multi nation states...

There are a number of nationalities that cover more than one national team, some of which you can see in the table below.

Nationality National teams
American United States, American Samoa, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico
British England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Anguilla, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Turks and Caicos Islands
Chinese China PR, Hong Kong, Macau
Danish Denmark, Faroe Islands
French France, Gaudeloupe, Reunion, Tahiti
Dutch Netherlands, Aruba, Curacao
New Zealander New Zealand, Cook Islands

However, if you have one of these nationalities, it is not simply a case of being able to pick and choose which team you wish to play for; a player must meet certain criteria. Article 6deals with such cases as follows:

"A player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than one association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions:
a) He was born on the territory of the relevant association;
b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant association;
c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association;
d) He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant association for at least two years."

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/fifa-national-team-eligibility-rules-players-who-have/1hndiedxd2d4h1jfved27pg4go

 

The Home Nations agreement doesn't permit section d) above, replacing it with the 5 years of schooling rule as introduced by Gordon Smith.

But I do agree that it appears to be a heap of journalistic nonsense to suggest Tavernier could play for us.

 

 

Edited by Toepoke

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1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

Any updated news of whether Ryan Fredericks might be available, Scottish grandfather I believe.  I'd like to think someone was keeping tabs on him and that he might be approached, we've not exactly got lots of options in that position.

Started for West Ham yesterday so looks like he's going to be their regular RB this year, was in and out of the side last season.

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I suppose if Scotland becomes independent he could apply for a Scottish passport and citizenship 

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9 hours ago, Toepoke said:

I still don't think we could pick and choose even with the Home Nations agreement taken out of the equation. 

This is how FIFA define eligibility in multi nation states...

There are a number of nationalities that cover more than one national team, some of which you can see in the table below.

Nationality National teams
American United States, American Samoa, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico
British England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Anguilla, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Turks and Caicos Islands
Chinese China PR, Hong Kong, Macau
Danish Denmark, Faroe Islands
French France, Gaudeloupe, Reunion, Tahiti
Dutch Netherlands, Aruba, Curacao
New Zealander New Zealand, Cook Islands

However, if you have one of these nationalities, it is not simply a case of being able to pick and choose which team you wish to play for; a player must meet certain criteria. Article 6deals with such cases as follows:

"A player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than one association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions:
a) He was born on the territory of the relevant association;
b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant association;
c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association;
d) He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant association for at least two years."

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/fifa-national-team-eligibility-rules-players-who-have/1hndiedxd2d4h1jfved27pg4go

 

The Home Nations agreement doesn't permit section d) above, replacing it with the 5 years of schooling rule as introduced by Gordon Smith.

But I do agree that it appears to be a heap of journalistic nonsense to suggest Tavernier could play for us.

 

 

Player born in Germany to English father has already played for Northern Ireland, with no relationship to NI

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=FIFA_eligibility_rules&action=edit&section=5

Foreign-born British nationals

The agreement is often erroneously thought to be a response to cases similar to Maik Taylor, who was born in Germany to an English father and chose to represent Northern Ireland at international level despite having no ties to the nation. Taylor was called up to Northern Ireland in 1998, five years after the 1993 (gentlemen's) agreement was in place. The agreement was not applied when Taylor was called up by the IFA, possibly because in his case, neither the FA, SFA nor FAW was interested in capping him, unlike eg David Johnson (below) and so raised no objection.  

 

[citation needed]

 

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Lionel Messi could become eligible to play for Scotland if they changed the rules to allow Argentinians to play for Scotland.  

It's clickbait nonsense. 

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You have really deflated me. I was standing next to Steve Clarke at Glasgow Airport yesterday and was just about to approach him about it when I was distracted by a security person  rifling through my belongings; when I turned round, he was gone.

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Think this article has been written by someone with a very basic idea of how eligibility works, the Driver example is not as clear cut as the article makes it out (as he effectively grew up in Scotland as a kid, like Jordan Rhodes as his dad playing football up here for so many years, and both went through so-and-so years of Schooling in Scotland to make them eligible.), plus you have the "gentleman's agreement" between the home nations, so would not say it has much substance to it.

Would file this under slow news day (and probably the papers Editor only just skimmed through it).

Clarke was at Hamilton v Kilmarnock on Saturday (imagine checking up on his old team more than seeing new players)

Edited by wanderer
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16 hours ago, euan2020 said:

Player born in Germany to English father has already played for Northern Ireland, with no relationship to NI

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=FIFA_eligibility_rules&action=edit&section=5

Foreign-born British nationals

The agreement is often erroneously thought to be a response to cases similar to Maik Taylor, who was born in Germany to an English father and chose to represent Northern Ireland at international level despite having no ties to the nation. Taylor was called up to Northern Ireland in 1998, five years after the 1993 (gentlemen's) agreement was in place. The agreement was not applied when Taylor was called up by the IFA, possibly because in his case, neither the FA, SFA nor FAW was interested in capping him, unlike eg David Johnson (below) and so raised no objection.  

 

[citation needed]

 

In this case though Tavernier was born elsewhere in the UK with no connection to Scotland whatsoever.  

Such a player has never been eligible for Scotland under FIFA rules AFAIK, other than residency which is not accepted via the home nations agreement. 

 

 

Edited by Toepoke

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6 hours ago, aaid said:

Lionel Messi could become eligible to play for Scotland if they changed the rules to allow Argentinians to play for Scotland.  

It's clickbait nonsense. 

Bingo

 

This should have been the end of the thread

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16 hours ago, Toepoke said:

In this case though Tavernier was born elsewhere in the UK with no connection to Scotland whatsoever.  

Such a player has never been eligible for Scotland under FIFA rules AFAIK, other than residency which is not accepted via the home nations agreement. 

 

 

but that is the whole point of the home nations agreement, because without it - everyone eligible for  one of the 4 uk countries could play for any of the 4 uk countries - why some of Le Seaux, Le Tissies, Johnon (Jamaica) could all have played for any 1 of the 4 - based off the reason of holding briitsh passports

 

take a look

"3. British associations

  1. There is a specific agreement, stipulating the conditions to play for a national team, for the four British associations134. Besides having British nationality, the player needs to fulfil at least one of the following conditions
    a) he was born on the territory of the relevant association;
    b) his biological mother or father was born on the territory of the relevant association;
    c) his grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association.
  2. If a player has a British passport, but no territorial relationship as provided for in conditions a-c above, he can choose for which of the British associations he wants to play135.

134 England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. 
135 e.g. a player who was born on the Cayman Islands and holds British nationality

"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules#2009_agreement

Edited by euan2020

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1 hour ago, euan2020 said:

but that is the whole point of the home nations agreement, because without it - everyone eligible for  one of the 4 uk countries could play for any of the 4 uk countries - why some of Le Seaux, Le Tissies, Johnon (Jamaica) could all have played for any 1 of the 4 - based off the reason of holding briitsh passports

 

take a look

"3. British associations

  1. There is a specific agreement, stipulating the conditions to play for a national team, for the four British associations134. Besides having British nationality, the player needs to fulfil at least one of the following conditions
    a) he was born on the territory of the relevant association;
    b) his biological mother or father was born on the territory of the relevant association;
    c) his grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association.
  2. If a player has a British passport, but no territorial relationship as provided for in conditions a-c above, he can choose for which of the British associations he wants to play135.

134 England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. 
135 e.g. a player who was born on the Cayman Islands and holds British nationality

"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules#2009_agreement

I get that, but it only applies to players not born in England,  Scotland,  Wales or Northern Ireland. 

James Tavernier was born in Bradford, and has no Scottish parents or grandparents.  He is not eligible to play for us under the rules you've posted above.

 

Edited by Toepoke

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Is he Scottish? 

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He'd undoubtedly improve our team however he's English, has always been English, has no tangible connection to Scottish ancestry (which is another issue all together!) and therefore shouldn't (and won't) ever be considered to play for Scotland.

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20 minutes ago, Fairbairn said:

He'd undoubtedly improve our team however he's English, has always been English, has no tangible connection to Scottish ancestry (which is another issue all together!) and therefore shouldn't (and won't) ever be considered to play for Scotland.

This. 

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