Jump to content

Recommended Posts

44 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Only 16 of 42 voted for it. I was expecting it to be closer

Yes I'm surprised at that majority too. I could see it going either way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could 9* be back to 8 in a row as Null and Void possibilty is back in the equation going by comparable European court decisions 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

I dont understand why people are getting on top of Hearts so much. They didnt finish bottom. They were in bottom place when season was brought to an end early.

If you ask any manager whether they its possible to make up 4 points over 8 games when a min of 5 of those games are againstbhe teams around you then every single one of them would say yes.

Partick in particular got shafted and should not be relegated. They had a game in hand which if won would have moved them off bottom. Are people trying to say that Partick werent capable of winning a game?

I feel for Hearts to a certain degree, but theyve only themselves to blame. In terms of quality, the league was pretty poor this year, lots of really bad sides, to be bottom with ten games to go with the squad they had was shambolic.

As for the reconstruction, I understand we are in unprecedented times, but league reconstruction has never really been high on the priority of most top clubs including Hearts, so for them now to be at the fore front of reconstruction reeks of saving their own skin. 

The way they've been run from top to bottom has been embarassing. Hearts fans beef should be with Kevin and Budge, no one else.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

I dont understand why people are getting on top of Hearts so much. They didnt finish bottom. They were in bottom place when season was brought to an end early.

If you ask any manager whether they its possible to make up 4 points over 8 games when a min of 5 of those games are againstbhe teams around you then every single one of them would say yes.

Partick in particular got shafted and should not be relegated. They had a game in hand which if won would have moved them off bottom. Are people trying to say that Partick werent capable of winning a game?

So you'd tell Dundee United to ram it and stay down for another season?

Also just imagine the only issue to be settled was the Premiership relegation, now swap Hearts with Livingston, how much chatter would there be about reconstruction? Not a word. 

Edited by Farcity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Farcity said:

So you'd tell Dundee United to ram it and stay down for another season?

Also just imagine the only issue to be settled was the Premiership relegation, now swap Hearts with Livingston, how much chatter would there be about reconstruction? Not a word. 

There would be plenty chat. Clubs dont deserve to go down when the season isn't finished through no fault of their own. Let's talk about Partick or stranrear then. Nothing to do with hearts. Why is there an anti hearts agenda on here? Oh wait a minute. I dont give a flying about hearts but see this as an opportunity to improve our game and widen the league.  But some on here just want a team to go down because of. Well you know the rest.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Rolling hIlls said:

There would be plenty chat. Clubs dont deserve to go down when the season isn't finished through no fault of their own. Let's talk about Partick or stranrear then. Nothing to do with hearts. Why is there an anti hearts agenda on here? Oh wait a minute. I dont give a flying about hearts but see this as an opportunity to improve our game and widen the league.  But some on here just want a team to go down because of. Well you know the rest.

 

Indeed.

This whole process has been handled wrongly from the start.

The initial vote forced through by Neil Doncaster started this whole farce off.  There was no need to do that at that time, just a massively rushed vote simply to ensure Celtic got "declared" as "champions". And all the mess since then is a consequence of that first very flawed vote.

These last however many weeks could have been spent usefully discussing the best way ahead for Scottish football. An increased Premier is actually good even without current covid crisis. More interesting on the pitch, more clubs involved, and actually likely to lead to a bigger input of tv money for the simple reason that more clubs = more fans = more subscribers.

A 14 team Premier could have run with a 7/7 split format. 26 games h/a then split into 2x7 and play 12 more h/a, total (as now) 38 lge games.

A 16 team Premier could also have worked...30 games straight h/a then split into 2×8 and play other 7 once more, total 37 lge games.

And without even looking at format of other divisions, perhaps a 16-10-10-10 idea could have got through or had more chance? As most clubs seem to have voted selfishly, maybe 3 sets of 4 teams all advancing might have switched those 12 benefitting clubs to the yes side (if they weren't already). 

The shutting off the pyramid at the other end has also been wrong. Again, clearly selfish voting going on. The Lge2 clubs had seen how easily Cove had marched past them all this season. They clearly feared Kelty and/or Brora would do exactly the same next season if they'd been allowed to join SPFL, and indeed very likely both would have done well, especially the very strong Kelty, who have a top set up, well funded, great new ground, loads of support. Really tough on them in particular.

Anyway, onto a legal challenge now by Hearts, and fair enough. Belgium and France have already had their season-ending process deemed illegal so every chance Hearts have a valid case to put. Hope Partick especially, and Stranraer, Kelty & Brora, are able to add their participation to the legal process. A very messy but inevitable next step.

 

  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Farcity said:

So you'd tell Dundee United to ram it and stay down for another season?

Also just imagine the only issue to be settled was the Premiership relegation, now swap Hearts with Livingston, how much chatter would there be about reconstruction? Not a word. 

Where have I said Dundee Utd wouldnt get promoted? Ive said a 14 team top league would mean Hearts and Partick not being unfairly relegated. This would also.mean Utd, Inverness and Falkirk getting promoted and both non league sides getting entry into the league instead of unfairly being prohibited.

Hearts have been rotten this season. So have Partick. But this isnt the same as either league winners as imo both Cletic and Utd were vastly in the distance ad highly unlikely to be caught. 

That cant be said for Hearts and especially Partick. Both clubs had a more than realistic chance of moving up a position. All Partick had to do was win their game in hand.

If Hearts are successful in legal action what then? Forced recontruction? Leagues cant start or more likely compensation which could easily run into 7 figures. Are all the SPFL clubs going to take their share of that cost?

On a side note if it does go to court then Rangers will get their independent investigation through the back door which will carry a lot more weight. Could get messy.

As I say though. I generally cant see the downside for any club with the proposal just refused. What does a club like Motherwell just as an example (i dont know how they voted) have to lose. Top 6 is still top 6 but less likely of being in the bottom 2 because in theory 2 weaker sides have been added to the league.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, buckielugger said:

 

Indeed.

This whole process has been handled wrongly from the start.

The initial vote forced through by Neil Doncaster started this whole farce off.  There was no need to do that at that time, just a massively rushed vote simply to ensure Celtic got "declared" as "champions". And all the mess since then is a consequence of that first very flawed vote.

These last however many weeks could have been spent usefully discussing the best way ahead for Scottish football. An increased Premier is actually good even without current covid crisis. More interesting on the pitch, more clubs involved, and actually likely to lead to a bigger input of tv money for the simple reason that more clubs = more fans = more subscribers.

A 14 team Premier could have run with a 7/7 split format. 26 games h/a then split into 2x7 and play 12 more h/a, total (as now) 38 lge games.

A 16 team Premier could also have worked...30 games straight h/a then split into 2×8 and play other 7 once more, total 37 lge games.

And without even looking at format of other divisions, perhaps a 16-10-10-10 idea could have got through or had more chance? As most clubs seem to have voted selfishly, maybe 3 sets of 4 teams all advancing might have switched those 12 benefitting clubs to the yes side (if they weren't already). 

The shutting off the pyramid at the other end has also been wrong. Again, clearly selfish voting going on. The Lge2 clubs had seen how easily Cove had marched past them all this season. They clearly feared Kelty and/or Brora would do exactly the same next season if they'd been allowed to join SPFL, and indeed very likely both would have done well, especially the very strong Kelty, who have a top set up, well funded, great new ground, loads of support. Really tough on them in particular.

Anyway, onto a legal challenge now by Hearts, and fair enough. Belgium and France have already had their season-ending process deemed illegal so every chance Hearts have a valid case to put. Hope Partick especially, and Stranraer, Kelty & Brora, are able to add their participation to the legal process. A very messy but inevitable next step.

 

Good post.  But as I have said earlier.  What are Kelty Hearts going to bring to the table of top flight Scottish Football?  I used to be a fan of the pyramid system.  But not now.  They are a Junior team end of.  Played against them and we had more fans than them.  Gretna springs to mind.  We should be looking after our game at this point in history.  Football is a simple game.  Back to basics.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Where have I said Dundee Utd wouldnt get promoted? Ive said a 14 team top league would mean Hearts and Partick not being unfairly relegated. This would also.mean Utd, Inverness and Falkirk getting promoted and both non league sides getting entry into the league instead of unfairly being prohibited.

Hearts have been rotten this season. So have Partick. But this isnt the same as either league winners as imo both Cletic and Utd were vastly in the distance ad highly unlikely to be caught. 

That cant be said for Hearts and especially Partick. Both clubs had a more than realistic chance of moving up a position. All Partick had to do was win their game in hand.

If Hearts are successful in legal action what then? Forced recontruction? Leagues cant start or more likely compensation which could easily run into 7 figures. Are all the SPFL clubs going to take their share of that cost?

On a side note if it does go to court then Rangers will get their independent investigation through the back door which will carry a lot more weight. Could get messy.

As I say though. I generally cant see the downside for any club with the proposal just refused. What does a club like Motherwell just as an example (i dont know how they voted) have to lose. Top 6 is still top 6 but less likely of being in the bottom 2 because in theory 2 weaker sides have been added to the league.

Why should United and Inverness get promoted when they have done fuck all then, by that token. 

Highly unlikely.  Hearts won 4 games out of 37. What makes you think they are suddenly going to overhaul their gap? They wouldn't and most Hearts fans will admit this . The very nature of the split means that when one rival loses, the other gains. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Farcity said:

Why should United and Inverness get promoted when they have done fuck all then, by that token. 

Highly unlikely.  Hearts won 4 games out of 37. What makes you think they are suddenly going to overhaul their gap? They wouldn't and most Hearts fans will admit this . The very nature of the split means that when one rival loses, the other gains. 

Nobody is saying Utd or Inverness have done fuck all. 

Would Hearts or Partick defo have moved up a position. No. But 2 points with a game in hand or 4 points are hardly insurmountable. 

If your point is that Hearts have been so rubbish all season then that wouldnt have been possible then why were St Mirren only 4 points ahead. Logic would dictate that they must be pretty shocking aswell. Hence why theres a fair chance things could have changed. 

Teams make late runs to get out of relegation places or get into promotion places all the time.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With other leagues now opening again and finishing their seasons it just seems increasingly wrong what we did. Should have waited and played it out IMHO. And if it happens again next season we have now created the precedent. Could have been watching it this weekend...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Rolling hIlls said:

Good post.  But as I have said earlier.  What are Kelty Hearts going to bring to the table of top flight Scottish Football?  I used to be a fan of the pyramid system.  But not now.  They are a Junior team end of.  Played against them and we had more fans than them.  Gretna springs to mind.  We should be looking after our game at this point in history.  Football is a simple game.  Back to basics.  

Well Kelty have averaged just under 500 for Lowland Lge games, best figures outside SPFL (don't have any figures for West Juniors) and better than 6 current SPFL clubs (Brechin, Albion, Annan, Cowdenbeath, Edinburgh City & Stranraer). Their brand new stadium will also bring some better facilities to the Lge.

They may well mount another bid next season (depending on what's actually possible for anyone to do) but they did deserve a chance of going up this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, thplinth said:

With other leagues now opening again and finishing their seasons it just seems increasingly wrong what we did. Should have waited and played it out IMHO. And if it happens again next season we have now created the precedent. Could have been watching it this weekend...

Absolutely. Don't know why Hearts, Partick and Stranraer didn't push for resuming the season. Surely out of contract players would have accepted a month and a half contract extension, clubs would still have been able to use the furlough scheme.. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, thplinth said:

With other leagues now opening again and finishing their seasons it just seems increasingly wrong what we did. Should have waited and played it out IMHO. And if it happens again next season we have now created the precedent. Could have been watching it this weekend...

Yup. Monumental fuck up by those in charge. 

Now off to court we go.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Budge is looking for compensation, she should ask these philanthropists of hers seeing as they are handing out free cash. 🤔Someone touched on this earlier but we would not be having this conversation if Hamilton or Livi were bottom. Hearts lost any credibility with their insistence that their push for reconstruction was for the good of the game. At least be honest about it. Fuck them. 🤷‍♂️

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, buckielugger said:

 

Indeed.

This whole process has been handled wrongly from the start.

The initial vote forced through by Neil Doncaster started this whole farce off.  There was no need to do that at that time, just a massively rushed vote simply to ensure Celtic got "declared" as "champions". And all the mess since then is a consequence of that first very flawed vote.

These last however many weeks could have been spent usefully discussing the best way ahead for Scottish football. An increased Premier is actually good even without current covid crisis. More interesting on the pitch, more clubs involved, and actually likely to lead to a bigger input of tv money for the simple reason that more clubs = more fans = more subscribers.

A 14 team Premier could have run with a 7/7 split format. 26 games h/a then split into 2x7 and play 12 more h/a, total (as now) 38 lge games.

A 16 team Premier could also have worked...30 games straight h/a then split into 2×8 and play other 7 once more, total 37 lge games.

And without even looking at format of other divisions, perhaps a 16-10-10-10 idea could have got through or had more chance? As most clubs seem to have voted selfishly, maybe 3 sets of 4 teams all advancing might have switched those 12 benefitting clubs to the yes side (if they weren't already). 

The shutting off the pyramid at the other end has also been wrong. Again, clearly selfish voting going on. The Lge2 clubs had seen how easily Cove had marched past them all this season. They clearly feared Kelty and/or Brora would do exactly the same next season if they'd been allowed to join SPFL, and indeed very likely both would have done well, especially the very strong Kelty, who have a top set up, well funded, great new ground, loads of support. Really tough on them in particular.

Anyway, onto a legal challenge now by Hearts, and fair enough. Belgium and France have already had their season-ending process deemed illegal so every chance Hearts have a valid case to put. Hope Partick especially, and Stranraer, Kelty & Brora, are able to add their participation to the legal process. A very messy but inevitable next step.

 

Couple of points. The France and Belgium thing is a bit of a red herring IMO. That decision was imposed on their league clubs, our clubs were given a vote on whether to accept the proposal ( whether you thought the proposal was shite is neither here nor there) I’m no legal eagle but I’m sure that would make quite a difference when it comes court action

Also,  the game in hand thing, pretty sure it wasn’t just the case that the league was called on the points/games on the board when  the season was cancelled. It was decided on a points per game basis. Again, slightly different from some folks thinking it was called as it was. 

Finally, its worth noting that other leagues were or are only OK to start playing Based on their governments lockdown rules. Scotland could not have even contemplated starting games for at least 3 weeks from now. 

Sorry Buckie, these are not all aimed at you by the way 😂

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Jim Beem said:

Couple of points. The France and Belgium thing is a bit of a red herring IMO. That decision was imposed on their league clubs, our clubs were given a vote on whether to accept the proposal ( whether you thought the proposal was shite is neither here nor there) I’m no legal eagle but I’m sure that would make quite a difference when it comes court action

Also,  the game in hand thing, pretty sure it wasn’t just the case that the league was called on the points/games on the board when  the season was cancelled. It was decided on a points per game basis. Again, slightly different from some folks thinking it was called as it was. 

Finally, its worth noting that other leagues were or are only OK to start playing Based on their governments lockdown rules. Scotland could not have even contemplated starting games for at least 3 weeks from now. 

Sorry Buckie, these are not all aimed at you by the way 😂

 

 

And i assume the clubs in scotland weighed up the cost of playing games behind closed doors, what we owed sky, testing players, the current government rules etc before making this decision. A decision that was unanimous among the top flight clubs in the end.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

And i assume the clubs in scotland weighed up the cost of playing games behind closed doors, what we owed sky, testing players, the current government rules etc before making this decision. A decision that was unanimous among the top flight clubs in the end.

Aye, if we’d been in a position to start playing now, it would’ve been realistic. I was all for finishing this season.

Reality is clubs are only starting to return to training this week, and believe it’s 2 weeks until all the testing etc. Is in place for full contact training?

So your talking a mid July start, with 8 games to play over 5 weeks, presuming no squad has a case....

The rest of Europe is weeks ahead of us, either because they are further down the line (Italy) or handled the outbreak better (Germany)... the clusterfuck that has been the uk handling of this is kind of beyond Scottish football.

Hearts are only interested in saving Hearts and everyone else likes the status quo as Hearts proposal has no obvious immediate kick back for them. They see a pie divided 14 ways or a pie divided 12 ways...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Levein v donald findlay on the sportsound podcast. 

arguing about reconstruction

Edited by vanderark14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, buckielugger said:

Well Kelty have averaged just under 500 for Lowland Lge games, best figures outside SPFL (don't have any figures for West Juniors) and better than 6 current SPFL clubs (Brechin, Albion, Annan, Cowdenbeath, Edinburgh City & Stranraer). Their brand new stadium will also bring some better facilities to the Lge.

They may well mount another bid next season (depending on what's actually possible for anyone to do) but they did deserve a chance of going up this time.

Didn't know that.  Thanks.  They have moved up a level since I played against them for sure.  I know how much the Lithgae Rose players are on per week and is good money for part time players.  Roughly £200 per week depending on who you are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Jim Beem said:

Couple of points. The France and Belgium thing is a bit of a red herring IMO. That decision was imposed on their league clubs, our clubs were given a vote on whether to accept the proposal ( whether you thought the proposal was shite is neither here nor there) I’m no legal eagle but I’m sure that would make quite a difference when it comes court action

Also,  the game in hand thing, pretty sure it wasn’t just the case that the league was called on the points/games on the board when  the season was cancelled. It was decided on a points per game basis. Again, slightly different from some folks thinking it was called as it was. 

Finally, its worth noting that other leagues were or are only OK to start playing Based on their governments lockdown rules. Scotland could not have even contemplated starting games for at least 3 weeks from now. 

Sorry Buckie, these are not all aimed at you by the way 😂

 

 

All very fair points. Situation in Belgium & France certainly different in sense of clubs didn't vote for season termination. Then again, vote in Scotland may or may not have been valid...will we ever know any more on that?

Presume if Hearts think they even have a small chance of success on the legal front, they will throw money at it. Can hardly blame them. 

Sadly, Scottish football has run with its head very deeply in the sand for too long. We have a national team who can't even get near finals tournaments anymore, an SPFL that can only attract a tiny fraction of tv money that other leagues manage, down to just 5 clubs who can hope for crowds over 10k.

Only glimmer of hope for me is below the SPFL where the pyramid is finally coming together much better - the switch of ALL the West Junior clubs into the senior system at long last is very welcome, and follows most of the East Juniors doing the same last season. The remaining East Junior stragglers will doubtless follow along in due course, and hopefully we may see a proper Highland pyramid in place soon with the Nth Juniors and Nth Caledonian clubs feeding into Highland Lge.

Just needs the SPFL to come up with something approaching sense!

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

And i assume the clubs in scotland weighed up the cost of playing games behind closed doors, what we owed sky, testing players, the current government rules etc before making this decision. A decision that was unanimous among the top flight clubs in the end.

 

The finance is a big one. Most clubs could never have afforded the thousands of ££ for testing each week to then  play games behind closed doors with no money coming in. Its pointless comparing us to other countries. Unfortunately 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...



×
×
  • Create New...