Scottish players in action 19/20

[AndyDD]

I'd like to see how a combo of Fleck and McTominay would work but given injuries and suspensions have meant it has been pretty much impossible to test out in the campaign thus far, it would be a risky move to give an untested pairing in the centre their first run out in a must win game. 

I think both Fleck and McTominay are better players than Mcgregor and Jack, but the two old firm players looked like they had played together several times rather than against each other and demonstrated a real understanding. They worked as a pair, probably better than any of the pairings we have had thus far (albeit the Mcgregor/Mclean/McTominay combo in Brussles held up okay). That might well be enough to prevent technically superior players replacing them. If we were to stick Fleck and McTominay together in the midfield and they play like strangers, we will be in big trouble and Clarke will look like a fool. 

Come March who knows who will be in form and match fit; the decision could make itself in that regard. McTominay would almost certainly have started one or both of the games had he been fit as he was in form and has featured regularly, afterall. But he didn't because he wasn't, and we may have landed on a duo that worked. We're all out of prep games now so we need to be clever and careful.

[aaid]

2 hours ago, AndyDD said:

I'd like to see how a combo of Fleck and McTominay would work but given injuries and suspensions have meant it has been pretty much impossible to test out in the campaign thus far, it would be a risky move to give an untested pairing in the centre their first run out in a must win game. 

I think both Fleck and McTominay are better players than Mcgregor and Jack, but the two old firm players looked like they had played together several times rather than against each other and demonstrated a real understanding. They worked as a pair, probably better than any of the pairings we have had thus far (albeit the Mcgregor/Mclean/McTominay combo in Brussles held up okay). That might well be enough to prevent technically superior players replacing them. If we were to stick Fleck and McTominay together in the midfield and they play like strangers, we will be in big trouble and Clarke will look like a fool. 

Come March who knows who will be in form and match fit; the decision could make itself in that regard. McTominay would almost certainly have started one or both of the games had he been fit as he was in form and has featured regularly, afterall. But he didn't because he wasn't, and we may have landed on a duo that worked. We're all out of prep games now so we need to be clever and careful.

I think there's a lot to be said for McGregor and Jack - assuming both are fit - for the play-off on the "better the devil you know" basis.  

There also something in the fact that they've probably played against each other 20 times or so and will have built up an understanding of each other's game from that as well.

Too important a game(s) to try out unknown combinations unless forced to. 

[bazmidd]

2 hours ago, AndyDD said:

I'd like to see how a combo of Fleck and McTominay would work but given injuries and suspensions have meant it has been pretty much impossible to test out in the campaign thus far, it would be a risky move to give an untested pairing in the centre their first run out in a must win game. 

I think both Fleck and McTominay are better players than Mcgregor and Jack, but the two old firm players looked like they had played together several times rather than against each other and demonstrated a real understanding. They worked as a pair, probably better than any of the pairings we have had thus far (albeit the Mcgregor/Mclean/McTominay combo in Brussles held up okay). That might well be enough to prevent technically superior players replacing them. If we were to stick Fleck and McTominay together in the midfield and they play like strangers, we will be in big trouble and Clarke will look like a fool. 

Come March who knows who will be in form and match fit; the decision could make itself in that regard. McTominay would almost certainly have started one or both of the games had he been fit as he was in form and has featured regularly, afterall. But he didn't because he wasn't, and we may have landed on a duo that worked. We're all out of prep games now so we need to be clever and careful.

I am not completely buying how well the McGregor Jack combo worked in Midfield, they done OK, nothing more. Again the papers in Scotland seem to have bummed them up as the first choice pairing now after half decent performances against Cyprus and Kazakhstan. Even at that, on numerous occasions I watched them both almost play in the same spaces especially defensively. There were a good few times when Jack and McGregor were almost holding hands in Midfield, a good team would have exploited these gaps they left. I don't want to completely diss them as they did do ok, I just don't think they were that good that they are guaranteed starters for the next games, especially when we have better players that could come in 

[AndyDD]

12 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

I am not completely buying how well the McGregor Jack combo worked in Midfield, they done OK, nothing more. Again the papers in Scotland seem to have bummed them up as the first choice pairing now after half decent performances against Cyprus and Kazakhstan. Even at that, on numerous occasions I watched them both almost play in the same spaces especially defensively. There were a good few times when Jack and McGregor were almost holding hands in Midfield, a good team would have exploited these gaps they left. I don't want to completely diss them as they did do ok, I just don't think they were that good that they are guaranteed starters for the next games, especially when we have better players that could come in 

Oh they were far from perfect, I completely agree. Look at the goal we lost at Hampden, both of them played their part in that. They certainly do, as individuals and as a pairing, have room to improve off the back of those two games. The problem with changing both for Fleck and McTominay, who to my memory have never played together, is that you run the risk of playing a dysfunctional duo for the first time in a game that we can't afford not to win and at that point it's too late. 

For me, it's not so much that they were brilliant against limited opposition (I think Cyprus are a better side than Israel, to be fair) but that they seemed to get each other more, and work more fluently together, than any of the other duos we have tried thus far. Granted, McTominay and Fleck could well get each other as well or better than Mcgregor and Jack did in Cyprus were they to take the field together against Israel, but we currently have no reason to think that, whereas we saw Mcgregor and Jack compliment each other reasonably well and build on that over the double header. So something that worked okay and was showing positive progression, the mcgregor/jack combo, versus an entirely unknown quantity, the Mctominay/Fleck duo. I've no idea which is the better bet, but undeniably there is a logical argument for the former. 

I wouldn't put the Mcgregor/Jack combo down as a guaranteed starter either, essentially, but whilst I think Fleck and McTominay are better players pound for pound, it would undoubtedly be a risk to play an entirely untested, first time midfield duo in place of the one that successfully saw us through the last set of fixtures.. 

Wroth noting as well that Sheffield United's strength at the moment is familiarity; they players all know each other's game inside out. Many, probably most, have played with Fleck for years. They get his game, know where he will be, and vice versa. That's one of the reasons he has been so assured for them, but looked entirely lost in Russia. You'll never replicate that familiarity with an international side. 

[PASTA Mick]

If McGregor is fit, he will start.  He started all 14 games in the Nations League and qualifiers.  I don't think any other player featured in all 14 matches.

There is a reason he never gets left out for Scotland or Celtic and that is because he is a very good player.  

Not bringing McGregor into the team probably cost WGS his job.

Edited November 26, 2019 by PASTA Mick

[bazmidd]

56 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

If McGregor is fit, he will start.  He started all 14 games in the Nations League and qualifiers.  I don't think any other player featured in all 14 matches.

There is a reason he never gets left out for Scotland or Celtic and that is because he is a very good player.  

Not bringing McGregor into the team probably cost WGS his job.

How good is McGregor do you think? I'm not a Celtic fan so can't comment on his performances week in week out. What I have seen though I think he is a good player, but can also do more. A year and a half ago he was absolutely brilliant from what I seen, but he seems to have stagnated a little of late. Against Kazakhstan I was sat watching and thinking what is McCregor actually bringing to the team, he was playing everything safe, little passes no real movement from him, no drive, he is capable of so much more. But then he almost grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck second half. He drove the team forward and looked to get the ball and create things. It reminded me of Barry Ferguson, and I think he is capable of taking responsibility and grabbing games by the scruff of the neck more often. Can he do it at the highest level though, celtic fans may know better than myself. 

[JECK]

9 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

😂😂😂

I'll stand by that comment. England are blessed with world class final 3rd players and a centre half who had better stats than Van Dyk last season in  McGuire and a right back that can create something out of nothing and defend in Arnold. Strikers/defenders are where the big money goes and wins you games which we obviously do not have at the moment. When it comes to midfield, in terms of the sheer number of very high quality midfielders I'd say we edge it. 

[Tartan_McCole]

1 hour ago, bazmidd said:

How good is McGregor do you think? I'm not a Celtic fan so can't comment on his performances week in week out. What I have seen though I think he is a good player, but can also do more. A year and a half ago he was absolutely brilliant from what I seen, but he seems to have stagnated a little of late. Against Kazakhstan I was sat watching and thinking what is McCregor actually bringing to the team, he was playing everything safe, little passes no real movement from him, no drive, he is capable of so much more. But then he almost grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck second half. He drove the team forward and looked to get the ball and create things. It reminded me of Barry Ferguson, and I think he is capable of taking responsibility and grabbing games by the scruff of the neck more often. Can he do it at the highest level though, celtic fans may know better than myself. 

It probably could be a criticism of him regarding how often he really grabs games, however given he is playing for Celtic he rarely actually has to. He tends to be more quietly effective in how he goes about his business. His short passing game and general movement off the ball is excellent. Easily the type of player you could forget is actually playing, but really notice it when they're not.

[Blantyre_Braveheart]

14 hours ago, Bino's said:

And they have achieved this with virtually fuck all eligible playing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Rangers_F.C._season

Yip just the likes of McGregor, Hutton, Whitaker, Thomson, Ferguson, Boyd, Adam, Broadfoot, Naismith, Weir, etc

[Orraloon]

22 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

What a ridiculous thing to say. I’ve seen people with toothache caused by an abscess that can barely move their head.

I’m not saying Robertson was that bad as I don’t know much about it but it is possible he was in too much pain to play football. 

He was on the same Ryanair flight as us from Edinburgh to Bologna. There was fuk all wrong with him.

[ParisInAKilt]

2 hours ago, JECK said:

I'll stand by that comment. England are blessed with world class final 3rd players and a centre half who had better stats than Van Dyk last season in  McGuire and a right back that can create something out of nothing and defend in Arnold. Strikers/defenders are where the big money goes and wins you games which we obviously do not have at the moment. When it comes to midfield, in terms of the sheer number of very high quality midfielders I'd say we edge it. 

We don’t have any very high quality midfielders 

[bazmidd]

2 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

We don’t have any very high quality midfielders 

Very high quality would be putting in quality performances at the highest level... So we have 3 Midfielders currently doing this in the EPL

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

He was on the same Ryanair flight as us from Edinburgh to Bologna. There was fuk all wrong with him.

If I'm mistaken, he was back for the second game (which is the flight you saw him on), therefore he was fit to play when you saw him. If he couldn't be bothered, he could have easily sat or both games, but he didn't

[ParisInAKilt]

32 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

Very high quality would be putting in quality performances at the highest level... So we have 3 Midfielders currently doing this in the EPL

The lower half of the EPL for half a season isn’t the highest level 

[Orraloon]

23 hours ago, aaid said:

He had wisdom teeth removed under anaesthetic and couldn't fly after 

Unless it was done by a Shipman like character, I think it's highly unlikely that he was anaesthetised without his permission. He choose to miss a Scotland game to get it done. He could have chosen to get it done a fortnight later or a fortnight earlier, at a time when he had no need to get on a plane. he prioritised a Liverpool game over a Scotland game. That's not the behaviour of captain material. IMO.

[ParisInAKilt]

2 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Unless it was done by a Shipman like character, I think it's highly unlikely that he was anaesthetised without his permission. He choose to miss a Scotland game to get it done. He could have chosen to get it done a fortnight later or a fortnight earlier, at a time when he had no need to get on a plane. he prioritised a Liverpool game over a Scotland game. That's not the behaviour of captain material. IMO.

Agreed. 

[aaid]

17 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Unless it was done by a Shipman like character, I think it's highly unlikely that he was anaesthetised without his permission. He choose to miss a Scotland game to get it done. He could have chosen to get it done a fortnight later or a fortnight earlier, at a time when he had no need to get on a plane. he prioritised a Liverpool game over a Scotland game. That's not the behaviour of captain material. IMO.

I remember when I had - impacted - wisdom teeth removed they were absolute agony and I had it done under GA by a dentist.

From what I recall, it was before a double header, the first leg of which was away, he had the op straight after playing for Liverpool at the weekend, offered to flight out after the team at his own cost but wasn't allowed to fly because of the op.  

Edit, just seen the post above from someone on the same flight as him to Bologna. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by aaid

[Orraloon]

8 minutes ago, aaid said:

I remember when I had - impacted - wisdom teeth removed they were absolute agony and I had it done under GA by a dentist.

From what I recall, it was before a double header, the first leg of which was away, he had the op straight after playing for Liverpool at the weekend, offered to flight out after the team at his own cost but wasn't allowed to fly because of the op.  He could've played in the second game at home but for whatever reason the management and/or medical staff sent him back to his club. 

He chose to miss the Kazakhstan game but played in the San Marino game. Both away.

[aaid]

13 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

He chose to miss the Kazakhstan game but played in the San Marino game. Both away.

I knew there was a problem with the first away game and he was available for the second, I was just confused about the second one being at home.

i find it hard to believe that he didn't have the procedure without the Scotland management at least being aware of it.

[bazmidd]

1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said:

The lower half of the EPL for half a season isn’t the highest level 

Man Utd and Sheffield Utd are in the top half of the Premier League so you aren't even nearly correct there. Anyway it is completely irrelevant where their respective clubs are positioned. McGinn, Fleck and McTominay have all put in fantastic individual performances, of the highest quality, against some of the best teams there is in the Premier League. There is no denying that

[ParisInAKilt]

5 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

Man Utd and Sheffield Utd are in the top half of the Premier League so you aren't even nearly correct there. Anyway it is completely irrelevant where their respective clubs are positioned. McGinn, Fleck and McTominay have all put in fantastic individual performances, of the highest quality, against some of the best teams there is in the Premier League. There is no denying that

Still doesn’t make them midfielders of the highest quality though does it? Not at this stage of their careers anyway. 

[Blantyre_Braveheart]

2 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Still doesn’t make them midfielders of the highest quality though does it? Not at this stage of their careers anyway. 

I mean McGinn and Mctominay would either be in the England squad or on the cusp of this. Both are the style of midfielder England use at cm. It's the reason Maddison, Grealish, etc don't have much caps, they don't suit the way England use their central midfield.

[ParisInAKilt]

10 minutes ago, Blantyre_Braveheart said:

I mean McGinn and Mctominay would either be in the England squad or on the cusp of this. Both are the style of midfielder England use at cm. It's the reason Maddison, Grealish, etc don't have much caps, they don't suit the way England use their central midfield.

I suspect that Southgate doesn’t think either are good enough to influence games at international level in their position, he’s probably right. They aren’t quality midfielders either, yet. 
Maybe McGinn and McTominay could play for England but it’s hypothetical, I’m not bashing them by saying they aren’t quality midfielders. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by ParisInAKilt

[bazmidd]

1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Still doesn’t make them midfielders of the highest quality though does it? Not at this stage of their careers anyway. 

How high a quality of Midfielder are we talking here exactly? If you are talking the very highest as in the best the Champions League has to offer then no they re not of that quality just yet. They are the level below that though, they have the quality to compete with the best Midfielders in the game, as they are proving this season, and have proved certainly in McTominay’s case before. 

[Texas Pete]

4 hours ago, Orraloon said:

He was on the same Ryanair flight as us from Edinburgh to Bologna. There was fuk all wrong with him.

Not sure what that proves but ok.