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Scottish players in action 19/20


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23 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

So that sounds very much to me that you'd have Shinnie or McLean in the side above Forrest. Unless you want to add that they are a wasted jersey too. Incidentally, we would not be in this play-off if it were not for Forrest's goals.

Ok I surrender, apologies if I doubted Forrest’s contribution to Scotland’s recent success. 👏👏👏

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5 minutes ago, RDFH64 said:

Ok I surrender, apologies if I doubted Forrest’s contribution to Scotland’s recent success. 👏👏👏

Do not get me wrong - I don't see him as a Pele-type but he can score goals for us from midfield unlike Shinnie and McLean. And potentially he is far better than them. Granted he frustrates like hell.

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3 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Do not get me wrong - I don't see him as a Pele-type but he can score goals for us from midfield unlike Shinnie and McLean. And potentially he is far better than them. Granted he frustrates like hell.

James Forrest is a winger. Kenny McLean is a defensive midfielder. Surely it’s not a like-for-like comparison?

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11 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The talk was theoretically being 1-1 V Israel with 15 mins to go and who I'd sooner call on from the bench.

Oh, ok.

Again, that’s a specific scenario, rather than a like-for-like comparison. Presumably, you’d have enough of each type of player in your squad, so you could call on whichever type of player you needed off the bench. I don’t think that there’s any scenario where James Forrest and Kenny McLean are in competition with each other for a jersey.

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1 minute ago, dohadeer said:

Oh, ok.

Again, that’s a specific scenario, rather than a like-for-like comparison. Presumably, you’d have enough of each type of player in your squad, so you could call on whichever type of player you needed off the bench. I don’t think that there’s any scenario where James Forrest and Kenny McLean are in competition with each other for a jersey.

If we are talking defensive midfielders Kenny McLean falls way down the list of in line for a place - or should. At the very least way below Billy Gilmour. But if you are happy with mediocrity that is your outlook.

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4 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

If we are talking defensive midfielders Kenny McLean falls way down the list of in line for a place - or should. At the very least way below Billy Gilmour. But if you are happy with mediocrity that is your outlook.

Again, that’s not what I was saying, nor what we were discussing. Please don’t twist my words like that.

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1 minute ago, dohadeer said:

Again, that’s not what I was saying, nor what we were discussing. Please don’t twist my words like that.

Who is twisting words? You seem to be very smugly satisfied that the Scotland squad has the likes of Graham Shinnie and Kenny McLean in it. You seem to want them in the squad ahead of Billy Gilmour and James Forrest even though both play at a lower level. If Scotland wants to do something of note in international football I guarantee it won't happen with players of the ilk of Shinnie and McLean in the squad. Replace the dead wood with players promising so much more. Seems reasonable to me and is what the vast majority of Scotland fans want.

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58 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

And I will re-iterate it again as I have before. I am not making Forrest out to be some kind of Pele but if we are in need of a goal and had Forrest, Shinnie or McLean on the bench I know who I'd sooner see come on to try to make a difference.

You’d want a winger to come on instead of a defensive midfielder. Surely that goes without saying? I don’t get why you’re directly comparing a winger to central or defensive midfielders, as if they’re competing for the same roles. Obviously the winger offers more in an attacking sense. That isn’t a revelation.

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1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Who is twisting words? You seem to be very smugly satisfied that the Scotland squad has the likes of Graham Shinnie and Kenny McLean in it. You seem to want them in the squad ahead of Billy Gilmour and James Forrest even though both play at a lower level. If Scotland wants to do something of note in international football I guarantee it won't happen with players of the ilk of Shinnie and McLean in the squad. Replace the dead wood with players promising so much more. Seems reasonable to me and is what the vast majority of Scotland fans want.

The only thing that I said was that there’s no reason to compare wingers against defensive midfielders - and certainly not on the basis of goals scored.

That’s all.

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4 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

The only thing that I said was that there’s no reason to compare wingers against defensive midfielders - and certainly not on the basis of goals scored.

That’s all.

And you were leaping in halfway through a conversation and getting the wrong end of the stick. The point stemmed from who I'd sooner have on the bench should we need a goal in the last 15 minutes V Israel and that I'd sooner have Forrest (and Gilmour) there to call on than Shinnie or McLean. The latter are both 28 and have not cracked it in international football yet and are not going to make a difference to whether we qualify or not. Those are the type of players we need to cut from the squad not encourage their selection over the lines of Gilmour and Forrest.

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1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

And I will re-iterate it again as I have before. I am not making Forrest out to be some kind of Pele but if we are in need of a goal and had Forrest, Shinnie or McLean on the bench I know who I'd sooner see come on to try to make a difference.

You seem to be offering Forrest as the only attacking option and touting him because he's the only attacking option. 😄

I honestly can't think of a situation where Forrest would be the best option to bring on if you wanted a goal. He literally never scores. We play 1 up, there will be two strikers on the bench, probably McBurnie or Brophy or Naismith.. You'd bring one of those on, not Forrest.

The only time I'd ever bring Forrest on is due to injury.

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1 minute ago, andyD said:

You seem to be offering Forrest as the only attacking option and touting him because he's the only attacking option. 😄

I honestly can't think of a situation where Forrest would be the best option to bring on if you wanted a goal. He literally never scores. We play 1 up, there will be two strikers on the bench, probably McBurnie or Brophy or Naismith.. You'd bring one of those on, not Forrest.

The only time I'd ever bring Forrest on is due to injury.

I would take any of those you mentioned and Forrest over Shinnie and McLean as I am sure 99% of Scotland fans would.

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1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I would take any of those you mentioned and Forrest over Shinnie and McLean as I am sure 99% of Scotland fans would.

Yes, because in your scenario you need a goal.. ffs. 😄
If you're 2-1 up with 10 to go you'd want Shinnie or McLean.. well ok not McLean, he's a bombscare.
You're stating the obvious and comparing apples and oranges for no apparent reason.
 

Back to the actual topic. Gilmour makes himself available, he's calm on the ball and accurate with his passing. This cannot be said of several of our supposedly wonderful midfielders. Most notably, McGregor and McLean. Both have been in the side and repeatedly failed. I would put Gilmour in ahead of them, with no reservations.

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2 minutes ago, andyD said:

Yes, because in your scenario you need a goal.. ffs. 😄
If you're 2-1 up with 10 to go you'd want Shinnie or McLean.. well ok not McLean, he's a bombscare.
You're stating the obvious and comparing apples and oranges for no apparent reason.
 

Back to the actual topic. Gilmour makes himself available, he's calm on the ball and accurate with his passing. This cannot be said of several of our supposedly wonderful midfielders. Most notably, McGregor and McLean. Both have been in the side and repeatedly failed. I would put Gilmour in ahead of them, with no reservations.

You are just not getting it.

Okay lets imagine we are not chasing a goal. We are before the Israel match. Which players excite you more from Forrest, Shinnie or McLean. Which of those players are more likely to influence the result of a match as in do something to alter the result with a performance. Shinnie and McLean have never done it for Scotland. At least Forrest has with five goals and I'd hazard a guess he has been part of a few assists too. And before you start misinterpreting I am not painting him as a Scottish Pele. He frustrates the hell out of me and many but he is a player who may just make a difference as he did V Israel before. The same cannot be said of Shinnie and McLean.

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16 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

You are just not getting it.

Which players excite you more from Forrest, Shinnie or McLean.

McLean is garbage, so no. 10 caps in and he's proved he's not good enough.

Forrest has probably the worst return of any player in the national team I can remember. For the caps he's had his influence on games has been dire. Scored in just 2 caps and only has 3 assists. From 34 caps as a forward player. He's player against Lichtenstein, Malta and Lithuania twice, Qatar, San Marino twice.. from all those games together he has 1 assist. He had 2 matches where everything just dropped for him, and since then he's reverted to normal and not looked a threat in 8 appearances since.

Compared to Ryan Christie.. who has 1 goal, 5 assists from 8 competitive games. So the inclusion of Forrest tells me we're not playing our strongest side and we're not giving ourselves the best chance of a result. We have better players than James Forrest.

Shinnie actually hasn't spent much time on the pitch. 104 minutes of competitive football for Scotland. 6 caps in total. Just 2 starts. One of those was at left back, which is no longer his position, and yes was at fault in the Kazakh debacle. But he came on in the win against Israel and showed drive and energy in midfield. He's also an actual defensive midfielder which is something we've lacked. We've been crowbarring in McGregor , McGinn and Armstrong into that role and while Armstrong's not let himself down in that position the other two have, with McGinn cementing his spot further up the pitch. Shinnie would be a square peg in a square hole. Playing a role that he plays for his club and which could benefit us as he's Aberdeens former captain and we could use some organisation in the middle of the park. In my view Shinnie is a viable candidate for a starting spot. 2 from McTominay, Gilmour, Shinnie and Fleck.

Shinnie and Forrest are essentially opposites. Forrest has a couple of freakishly good games which seem to have made people forget how awful he's been across the piece, while Shinnie has one awful game (along with everyone else on the pitch in dark blue) and so everyone takes that as the sum total of him as a player. Shinnie makes more sense in the 11 that Forrest does, tho Forrest has to be in the squad due to our complete lack of available wide players at the moment.

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Forrest has been in decent form of late and has had a good season, adding a degree of versatility to his game and putting in some good showings in Europe. 

Beyond, that, though, Forrest scored a hattrick at Hampden against Israel. 

A little over a year later, we are due to play Israel. At Hampden. By and large the same side, same defence, that he put three past. You better believe I want him playing. I know if I was one of the Israel players, I'd be delighted if the guy who scored three goals against us last time we were here isn't playing. If Scotland were playing a team who had beaten us 3-2 in the same fixture last year and one player scored three against us, we would be hoping beyond hope that he did not feature in the upcoming rematch.   

It will be interesting to see how he and the other Scottish players come do in the Old Firm game. 

I see Shinnie and Martin started for Derby at the weekend, Martin scoring twice. Palmer played for Sheff Wed but they got a doing, 5 skud off Brentford. Would Paul Mcginn at hibs be an option at right back? Fancy Jack could do a job there but struggled of late for full match fitness and form. Mcginn surely better than O'Donnell, but not saying much... 

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33 minutes ago, AndyDD said:

Forrest has been in decent form of late and has had a good season, adding a degree of versatility to his game and putting in some good showings in Europe. 

Beyond, that, though, Forrest scored a hattrick at Hampden against Israel. 

A little over a year later, we are due to play Israel. At Hampden. By and large the same side, same defence, that he put three past. You better believe I want him playing. I know if I was one of the Israel players, I'd be delighted if the guy who scored three goals against us last time we were here isn't playing. If Scotland were playing a team who had beaten us 3-2 in the same fixture last year and one player scored three against us, we would be hoping beyond hope that he did not feature in the upcoming rematch.   

It will be interesting to see how he and the other Scottish players come do in the Old Firm game. 

I see Shinnie and Martin started for Derby at the weekend, Martin scoring twice. Palmer played for Sheff Wed but they got a doing, 5 skud off Brentford. Would Paul Mcginn at hibs be an option at right back? Fancy Jack could do a job there but struggled of late for full match fitness and form. Mcginn surely better than O'Donnell, but not saying much... 

Alternatively they might be thinking, "Fkin hell, that guy scored 3 against us and he can't even get in their first 11!"

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49 minutes ago, AndyDD said:

Forrest has been in decent form of late and has had a good season, adding a degree of versatility to his game and putting in some good showings in Europe. 

Beyond, that, though, Forrest scored a hattrick at Hampden against Israel. 

A little over a year later, we are due to play Israel. At Hampden. By and large the same side, same defence, that he put three past. You better believe I want him playing. I know if I was one of the Israel players, I'd be delighted if the guy who scored three goals against us last time we were here isn't playing. If Scotland were playing a team who had beaten us 3-2 in the same fixture last year and one player scored three against us, we would be hoping beyond hope that he did not feature in the upcoming rematch.   

It will be interesting to see how he and the other Scottish players come do in the Old Firm game. 

I see Shinnie and Martin started for Derby at the weekend, Martin scoring twice. Palmer played for Sheff Wed but they got a doing, 5 skud off Brentford. Would Paul Mcginn at hibs be an option at right back? Fancy Jack could do a job there but struggled of late for full match fitness and form. Mcginn surely better than O'Donnell, but not saying much... 

Jack played full back for Aberdeen a few times & apart from being a bomb scare there he was missed in midfield.

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4 minutes ago, RDFH64 said:

Jack played full back for Aberdeen a few times & apart from being a bomb scare there he was missed in midfield.

Aye, the right back options are horribly slim. 

Worth pointing out that our midfield is a good bit stronger than the Aberdeen one Jack was part of, of course. But still. 

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