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Scottish players in action 19/20


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5 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

I honestly think Gilmour is just the start of some very good players that will come through for us over the next 5 years. There are some cracking young players about to come through. 

Really?

Better than in previous years?

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7 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

You’ve got your saltire-vision turned up to the max there. 
 

What I meant was that countries with 20 potentially great midfielders would be almost guaranteed to get the three top-level midfielders required to fill the midfield. Countries with only three would be almost guaranteed to not get all three to fulfill their potential.

Let’s start with McTominay. I’d love to hear/read an unbiased appraisal of his level, but I certainly wouldn’t consider him as one of the best midfielders in the English Premier League. Depends what you mean by ‘one of the best,’ I suppose. One of the best 50, probably. One of the best 5, probably not. 

Gilmour is a (very) promising-looking 18 year old. However, there’s a huge distance between that and being one of the top players I’m the game. A lot still has to go very right for him to reach the top of the game. Plenty of players fulfill their early potential, plenty (more?) don’t. 
Where are you getting the idea that McGinn will play for a top-six side from? Surely that looks the least likely part of your equation? Again, I’d be interested to hear an unbiased opinion of him as a player, but he certainly doesn’t stand out to me in that league as someone who would be in line to make the jump to that level. Grealish at Villa seems to get the kind of praise that may suggest a move to that level could follow, but I haven’t heard that level of praise for McGinn at all.


A lot would have to go very, very right for all three of those players to reach the levels you speak of, within the next few years. It’s statistically very unlikely.

 I am mostly talking about potential when it comes to Gilmour. Mctominay imo is arguably a top 10/15 midfielder in the epl atm. He's also only 23 so he could go onto to get better. There's a good chance he would start for England. Mcginn has been excellent before his injury and was linked til moves to top 6 sides. Now obviously Gilmour is very much potential but he just had a mom v the European champions and a mom v Everton. I am not one to hype players up but he does look like he could hit the levels of mctominay and maybe surpass them. It's irrelevant if big countries have 20 talents that could make it big. We already have two relatively young midfielders who are epl standouts(not including fleck). So we could easily have a midfield that contains 3 players at top 6 sides soon. Most European countries would love that situation. As I said before it's potential and Gilmour might flop at Chelsea in the long run but we already have 3 excellent epl midfielders and Gilmour could be the crown in the jewel. 

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5 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

Really?

Better than in previous years?

I think so. 

The movement and demand of Scottish under 18s over the last year or two reminds me of what happened to Belgium a few years before they became as good as they are now. 

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3 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

 I am mostly talking about potential when it comes to Gilmour. Mctominay imo is arguably a top 10/15 midfielder in the epl atm. He's also only 23 so he could go onto to get better. There's a good chance he would start for England. Mcginn has been excellent before his injury and was linked til moves to top 6 sides. Now obviously Gilmour is very much potential but he just had a mom v the European champions and a mom v Everton. I am not one to hype players up but he does look like he could hit the levels of mctominay and maybe surpass them. It's irrelevant if big countries have 20 talents that could make it big. We already have two relatively young midfielders who are epl standouts(not including fleck). So we could easily have a midfield that contains 3 players at top 6 sides soon. Most European countries would love that situation. As I said before it's potential and Gilmour might flop at Chelsea in the long run but we already have 3 excellent epl midfielders and Gilmour could be the crown in the jewel. 

To calm down the hype a bit.....

When in history have we ever been one of the best in the World in any position?

I’d suggest that you’d have to go back a very long time, to when there were very few international teams, to find a time when Scotland were one of the best in the World in a particular position. Even when we look back with a bit of nostalgic bias, at our best players, Dalglish, Law, and the rest of them, I don’t think we ever put together a group in one position, that would be considered one of the best in the World. We may with a hint of favouritism be able to name a few great eras for Scotland and great players, but at the end of the day, we’ve never been beyond the first round of a major tournament, so it’s very rare that we’ve been one of the best in the World at any position if at all.

It may seem to you like we’re close to that now, but in reality it’s a tiny percentage chance of us getting there in the next few years, in the manner that you describe. Even where McTominay is now, there are other countries with players another level above that. For McGinn and Gilmour to both join that sort of level, a huge amount has to happen also. It’s a small, small percentage chance unfortunately, and that’s why it rarely, if ever, happens for a country with our size of player pool and resources.

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8 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

I think so. 

The movement and demand of Scottish under 18s over the last year or two reminds me of what happened to Belgium a few years before they became as good as they are now. 

And for the second time this evening.....

Steady on.

Can you elaborate on your claim a bit please, because I assume if that were the case, would we not be enjoying huge levels of success in our youth teams?

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23 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

And for the second time this evening.....

Steady on.

Can you elaborate on your claim a bit please, because I assume if that were the case, would we not be enjoying huge levels of success in our youth teams?

Our youth teams are doing alright.

We also tend to move players up quite quickly so rarely have our strongest youth teams playing. 

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35 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

To calm down the hype a bit.....

When in history have we ever been one of the best in the World in any position?

I’d suggest that you’d have to go back a very long time, to when there were very few international teams, to find a time when Scotland were one of the best in the World in a particular position. Even when we look back with a bit of nostalgic bias, at our best players, Dalglish, Law, and the rest of them, I don’t think we ever put together a group in one position, that would be considered one of the best in the World. We may with a hint of favouritism be able to name a few great eras for Scotland and great players, but at the end of the day, we’ve never been beyond the first round of a major tournament, so it’s very rare that we’ve been one of the best in the World at any position if at all.

It may seem to you like we’re close to that now, but in reality it’s a tiny percentage chance of us getting there in the next few years, in the manner that you describe. Even where McTominay is now, there are other countries with players another level above that. For McGinn and Gilmour to both join that sort of level, a huge amount has to happen also. It’s a small, small percentage chance unfortunately, and that’s why it rarely, if ever, happens for a country with our size of player pool and resources.

I said Europe Tbf. The chances are that we won't have one of the best midfields in Europe but for the first time in a long time it looks like we could have a centre midfield that has 3 top 6 epl players. Its mostly just the top 6 or 7 countries that have that. So if mctominay and mcginn can push on and become better plus Gilmour establishing himself at Chelsea then we would have a midfield that could match the big guns. It just depends on how much improvement these guys can make and if one or two of them become real superstars. Mctominays only 23 and I believe he could play for most top clubs in the world. At the end of the day I will happy admit that it's more likely we won't have one of Europes best midfields but at least there is chance which you couldn't say the same for any other positions. 

Edited by mccaughey85
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18 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

Our youth teams are doing alright.

We also tend to move players up quite quickly so rarely have our strongest youth teams playing. 

Where would the improvement have come from?

We’ve not made huge investments or any significant changes to our youth structure have we?

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49 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

I said Europe Tbf. The chances are that we won't have one of the best midfields in Europe but for the first time in a long time it looks like we could have a centre midfield that has 3 top 6 epl players. Its mostly just the top 6 or 7 countries that have that. So if mctominay and mcginn can push on and become better plus Gilmour establishing himself at Chelsea then we would have a midfield that could match the big guns. It just depends on how much improvement these guys can make and if one or two of them become real superstars. Mctominays only 23 and I believe he could play for most top clubs in the world. At the end of the day I will happy admit that it's more likely we won't have one of Europes best midfields but at least there is chance which you couldn't say the same for any other positions. 

‘One of the best midfields in Europe’ and ‘One of the best midfields in the World’ are fairly interchangeable statements, given that Europe is the dominant continent in World football.

 

What you are now saying is getting closer to reality than your original claim.

Even McTominay, who is currently our highest-level midfielder, is not quite at the top level yet. There is now a level above Manchester United, as they have slumped in recent times, along with Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham. So he has a bit of work to do, to prove himself as a first-team regular at the top level. I don’t see him as quite the superstar that you claim he is.

To me, McGinn is the most baffling bit of your midfield trio claim. Maybe his great season has passed me by - I believe he won some sort of award as Aston Villa’s player of the season, last season, when they won promotion - but I was totally unaware of him setting the heather alight in the Premier League, to the point where he’d be considered by one of the ‘Big Six.’ I’m willing to be corrected if that’s passed me by.

 

I think we’re talking about different levels of ‘chances’ in terms of this scenario coming true. To me it’s a 1 in 50, or 1 in 100 shot, and Billy Gilmour’s two matches this week have done little to change those chances. I assume that you think it’s a much higher chance than that, of these three all reaching the level you describe?

 

I assume, that in a few years, we will still be discussing our squads being made up of the same level of players we are now - not discussing how we have one of the best midfields in the World. We may produce the odd Champions League latter stages level of player, around once a decade, but the chances of producing several of them in the same position, at the same time, are really very tiny indeed.

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9 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

To me, McGinn is the most baffling bit of your midfield trio claim. Maybe his great season has passed me by - I believe he won some sort of award as Aston Villa’s player of the season, last season, when they won promotion - but I was totally unaware of him setting the heather alight in the Premier League, to the point where he’d be considered by one of the ‘Big Six.’ I’m willing to be corrected if that’s passed me by.

It passed you by. Before his injury he was outstanding for Villa, especially in the first 10-15 games of the season. Go back and have a look at MOTD and you'll see the pundits lavishing praise on him. In one episode I remember they actually had a segment highlighting why he was so important to the team.

Then there was the reports that Man Utd were very interested in him. I'm not sure I trust the veracity of them, but they are not completely unbelievable and it was so high profile I'm surprised you completely missed it.

Finally, he's scored 7 goals in his last 5 Scotland starts. 

John McGinn is a player.

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1 minute ago, mrniaboc said:

It passed you by. Before his injury he was outstanding for Villa, especially in the first 10-15 games of the season. Go back and have a look at MOTD and you'll see the pundits lavishing praise on him. In one episode I remember they actually had a segment highlighting why he was so important to the team.

Then there was the reports that Man Utd were very interested in him. I'm not sure I trust the veracity of them, but they are not completely unbelievable and it was so high profile I'm surprised you completely missed it.

Finally, he's scored 7 goals in his last 5 Scotland starts. 

John McGinn is a player.

I’m happy to take your word for it, rather than having to go back and risk listening to any more Ian Wright! I expect Aston Villa to go down this year, so we’ll probably find out quite soon what level his next step is. I don’t see him as being good enough to play for one of the ‘Big Six,’ but maybe I’ve got that wrong.

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3 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

I’m happy to take your word for it, rather than having to go back and risk listening to any more Ian Wright! I expect Aston Villa to go down this year, so we’ll probably find out quite soon what level his next step is. I don’t see him as being good enough to play for one of the ‘Big Six,’ but maybe I’ve got that wrong.

Please please please stop being so negative. You gain nothing from it. Being a contrarian is one thing, but completely ignoring facts is just absurd.

Gilmour, McTominay, Fleck and McGinn have been standouts this year. There is plenty of journalistic proof, if you can't be bothered to watch the games yourself. Add that to the consistency of Robertson, Fraser, Tierney, Christie, McGregor et al.

There is sooooo much to be postive about. Please join in.

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5 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Please please please stop being so negative. You gain nothing from it. Being a contrarian is one thing, but completely ignoring facts is just absurd.

Gilmour, McTominay, Fleck and McGinn have been standouts this year. There is plenty of journalistic proof, if you can't be bothered to watch the games yourself. Add that to the consistency of Robertson, Fraser, Tierney, Christie, McGregor et al.

There is sooooo much to be postive about. Please join in.

Gilmour has had an amazing four days/two matches/180 minutes.

I don’t think that you can put him in the same category as the other three you mentioned.

 

I’m just trying to be realistic and unbiased. As I’ve said before, I think that a big part of our problem is unrealistic expectations.

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23 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

‘One of the best midfields in Europe’ and ‘One of the best midfields in the World’ are fairly interchangeable statements, given that Europe is the dominant continent in World football.

 

What you are now saying is getting closer to reality than your original claim.

Even McTominay, who is currently our highest-level midfielder, is not quite at the top level yet. There is now a level above Manchester United, as they have slumped in recent times, along with Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham. So he has a bit of work to do, to prove himself as a first-team regular at the top level. I don’t see him as quite the superstar that you claim he is.

To me, McGinn is the most baffling bit of your midfield trio claim. Maybe his great season has passed me by - I believe he won some sort of award as Aston Villa’s player of the season, last season, when they won promotion - but I was totally unaware of him setting the heather alight in the Premier League, to the point where he’d be considered by one of the ‘Big Six.’ I’m willing to be corrected if that’s passed me by.

 

I think we’re talking about different levels of ‘chances’ in terms of this scenario coming true. To me it’s a 1 in 50, or 1 in 100 shot, and Billy Gilmour’s two matches this week have done little to change those chances. I assume that you think it’s a much higher chance than that, of these three all reaching the level you describe?

 

I assume, that in a few years, we will still be discussing our squads being made up of the same level of players we are now - not discussing how we have one of the best midfields in the World. We may produce the odd Champions League latter stages level of player, around once a decade, but the chances of producing several of them in the same position, at the same time, are really very tiny indeed.

I haven't changed my original claim. We POTENTIALLY could have one of the best midfields in Europe in a few years. There are only 7 or 8 countries in Europe who have have starting midfielders who all play for top European clubs. Man utd might not be the force they were but are still high level operator who will finish in the top 6. Mctominay could easily play for another top club in Europe. He's only 23 and is a top midfielder in the epl. 

You must of missed the praise Mcginn was getting before he got injured, he was being linked with 50 million pound transfer to top 6 epl clubs. Whether he will move to them is yet to be seen and Aston villa getting relegated could be a big factor in that happening. 

If Gilmour lives up to the hype which is a big if, we could be looking at three top 6 midfielders playing in our midfield. Even 2 players playing top 6 epl and 1 playing lower half epl would be a good midfield especially if Gilmour and mctominay were to become superstars. 

I would say the chances of having one of the top midfields in Europe in the  next 4 years would be 1 in 5. This might seem like optimism but the likes of mctominay and Gilmour look genuine class and most of your smaller European countries don't have more than 1 centre midfielder playing for a top club like Chelsea or man utd. It's the 1 position were we have genuine quality and it's set to get better with Gilmour coming through. 

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3 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

Gilmour has had an amazing four days/two matches/180 minutes.

I don’t think that you can put him in the same category as the other three you mentioned.

 

I’m just trying to be realistic and unbiased. As I’ve said before, I think that a big part of our problem is unrealistic expectations.

Compare now to any time in the past 20 years. Has there been a more positive time? Barring maybe when Charlie Adam got signed for Liverpool.

I'm not sure what would satisfy your expectations. I just hope Clarke is seeing what a lot of the rest of us are seeing.

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2 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Compare now to any time in the past 20 years. Has there been a more positive time? Barring maybe when Charlie Adam got signed for Liverpool.

I'm not sure what would satisfy your expectations. I just hope Clarke is seeing what a lot of the rest of us are seeing.

Yes, I think there have been many more positive times in the past twenty years, given that this is all hype rather than actual results for Scotland. We’ve not got any results yet which have lifted us out of the doldrums that we find ourselves in. Billy Gilmour’s performances this week don’t transfer to immediate wins or ranking points for Scotland.

Again, not being negative, just realistic. We’ve got a lot of work to do to lift ourselves from our current standing. It’s very easy to put together fantasy midfields for three/four years time, particularly after the week that Gilmour has had. What’s not so easy is becoming a successful European international football team.

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5 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

Yes, I think there have been many more positive times in the past twenty years, given that this is all hype rather than actual results for Scotland. We’ve not got any results yet which have lifted us out of the doldrums that we find ourselves in. Billy Gilmour’s performances this week don’t transfer to immediate wins or ranking points for Scotland.

Again, not being negative, just realistic. We’ve got a lot of work to do to lift ourselves from our current standing. It’s very easy to put together fantasy midfields for three/four years time, particularly after the week that Gilmour has had. What’s not so easy is becoming a successful European international football team.

More positive results, of course. In terms of "players in action", I doubt it.

McTominay, Gilmour, Griffiths, and others, tearing it up right before a playoff. How can it get more positive in this critical juncture?

Maybe that'll change this time next week, but I choose to enjoy it, as I hope Clarke does too.

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5 hours ago, dohadeer said:

Where would the improvement have come from?

We’ve not made huge investments or any significant changes to our youth structure have we?

The performance schools. The first class is 19 now. Outside of the Celtic (they have their own school) and English born lads the majority of our most promising youngsters are performance school graduates. They tend to have a much higher level of technical ability due to all the extra hours training.

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41 minutes ago, Blantyre_Braveheart said:

The performance schools. The first class is 19 now. Outside of the Celtic (they have their own school) and English born lads the majority of our most promising youngsters are performance school graduates. They tend to have a much higher level of technical ability due to all the extra hours training.

Exactly what I thought.  Hopefully all talk of binning them is now itself in the bin. 

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8 hours ago, dohadeer said:

To calm down the hype a bit.....

When in history have we ever been one of the best in the World in any position?

I’d suggest that you’d have to go back a very long time, to when there were very few international teams, to find a time when Scotland were one of the best in the World in a particular position. Even when we look back with a bit of nostalgic bias, at our best players, Dalglish, Law, and the rest of them, I don’t think we ever put together a group in one position, that would be considered one of the best in the World. We may with a hint of favouritism be able to name a few great eras for Scotland and great players, but at the end of the day, we’ve never been beyond the first round of a major tournament, so it’s very rare that we’ve been one of the best in the World at any position if at all.

It may seem to you like we’re close to that now, but in reality it’s a tiny percentage chance of us getting there in the next few years, in the manner that you describe. Even where McTominay is now, there are other countries with players another level above that. For McGinn and Gilmour to both join that sort of level, a huge amount has to happen also. It’s a small, small percentage chance unfortunately, and that’s why it rarely, if ever, happens for a country with our size of player pool and resources.

FFS you must revel in telling your bairns there's nae Santa Claus.

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I understand your caution dohadeer, but Gilmour is not just another exciting prospect of which, as you say, the top nations have many..... we are talking about a generational talent here who, if he continues his rate of development, will become one of the top midfielders around. We are talking levels above the likes of Barry Ferguson and Darren Fletcher who have been our best midfielders in recent times. 
Just the inclusion of Gilmour will improve the team on the whole. 
Fleck, McTominay, McGinn, McGregor, Armstrong, Christie are all very good players in their own right with different attributes, so for me there is reason to be optimistic. 

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8 minutes ago, SWMM82 said:

I understand your caution dohadeer, but Gilmour is not just another exciting prospect of which, as you say, the top nations have many..... we are talking about a generational talent here who, if he continues his rate of development, will become one of the top midfielders around. We are talking levels above the likes of Barry Ferguson and Darren Fletcher who have been our best midfielders in recent times. 
Just the inclusion of Gilmour will improve the team on the whole. 
Fleck, McTominay, McGinn, McGregor, Armstrong, Christie are all very good players in their own right with different attributes, so for me there is reason to be optimistic. 

Yeah, I totally agree.

It was the jump to us having one of the best midfields in Europe that I thought was an exaggeration/extremely unlikely.

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2 hours ago, Blantyre_Braveheart said:

The performance schools. The first class is 19 now. Outside of the Celtic (they have their own school) and English born lads the majority of our most promising youngsters are performance school graduates. They tend to have a much higher level of technical ability due to all the extra hours training.

Ok, I’ll probably get pelters for this, but I don’t really follow the youth structures or anything like that. What are the performance schools? How are they different/better to what we have done in the past? Why would they allow us to suddenly produce a level of players way beyond what we have ever done before?

Genuinely interested, as there have been some hugely optimistic claims in the past few pages of this thread.

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