aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: They had a good finish that year but they were generally mid table or relegation battlers around this period. Ferguson lasted 2 seasons at the mighty Blackburn before running back home again. Don't get me wrong he was a good player and it could be argued that he was slightly better than brown but there isn't much between them imo. He was injured for most of his time at Blackburn and has admitted it was a mistake to move there in the first place. Brown and Ferguson while both playing in the same nominal position were different types of players though. Brown probably had more energy and drive whereas Ferguson had better technical ability. That's not to imply that one set of attributes are somehow superior to others. What Ferguson did have though was the ability to dictate the pace of a game, Brown had that to an extent but not to the level Ferguson does. Of course during his career that was what led to the Barry Backpass nickname by people who - frankly - were clueless about football and think its all about haring forwards at 100 mph for the whole game and just getting the ball up the field as quickly as possible. His last season in his first spell at Rangers, McLeish played him in a more advanced role which showed him at his absolute best. He scored 18 goals on the way to a treble and picked up both player of the year awards. Scott Brown has never come close to that level of performance. Sadly as a result of the serious injury he suffered at Blackburn and the more niggling injuries he continued to suffer he probably had to adjust his game and play a bit deeper as he wasn't physically capable of being the sort of player he'd been before going to Blackburn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, aaid said: He was injured for most of his time at Blackburn and has admitted it was a mistake to move there in the first place. Brown and Ferguson while both playing in the same nominal position were different types of players though. Brown probably had more energy and drive whereas Ferguson had better technical ability. That's not to imply that one set of attributes are somehow superior to others. What Ferguson did have though was the ability to dictate the pace of a game, Brown had that to an extent but not to the level Ferguson does. Of course during his career that was what led to the Barry Backpass nickname by people who - frankly - were clueless about football and think its all about haring forwards at 100 mph for the whole game and just getting the ball up the field as quickly as possible. His last season in his first spell at Rangers, McLeish played him in a more advanced role which showed him at his absolute best. He scored 18 goals on the way to a treble and picked up both player of the year awards. Scott Brown has never come close to that level of performance. Sadly as a result of the serious injury he suffered at Blackburn and the more niggling injuries he continued to suffer he probably had to adjust his game and play a bit deeper as he wasn't physically capable of being the sort of player he'd been before going to Blackburn. Still doesn't change the fact that none of your big clubs decided to buy him. I am happy to admit he was a good player who could of done well in England under different circumstances but he wasn't necessarily a better player than Scott brown. Not sure where this idea that Ferguson was a world beater comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Just now, mccaughey85 said: Still doesn't change the fact that none of your big clubs decided to buy him. I am happy to admit he was a good player who could of done well in England under different circumstances but he wasn't necessarily a better player than Scott brown. Not sure where this idea that Ferguson was a world beater comes from. Who's suggesting he's a world beater - I'm certainly not. He was a very good player, one of the best we've produced in the last 20-30 years, nothing more or nothing less than that. If you look at the English transfers that summer. Take Chelsea out of the equation - this was when Abramovich bought the club and they spent close on £100 million overhauling the squad - then Ferguson's transfer from Rangers to Blackburn was the 3rd biggest. The two that trumped that were Helder Postiga from Porto to Spurs for £8.25 million and Cristiano Ronaldo from Sporting Lisbon to Man Utd for £12 million. At the time, Ferguson to Blackburn was a big transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, aaid said: Who's suggesting he's a world beater - I'm certainly not. He was a very good player, one of the best we've produced in the last 20-30 years, nothing more or nothing less than that. If you look at the English transfers that summer. Take Chelsea out of the equation - this was when Abramovich bought the club and they spent close on £100 million overhauling the squad - then Ferguson's transfer from Rangers to Blackburn was the 3rd biggest. The two that trumped that were Helder Postiga from Porto to Spurs for £8.25 million and Cristiano Ronaldo from Sporting Lisbon to Man Utd for £12 million. At the time, Ferguson to Blackburn was a big transfer. Tbf my responses are more for the guys who were suggesting that he's far better than Scott brown and that none of our current centre midfielders are as good as him. Mcginn and mctominay are probably on a par with him atm and could go onto be better than him. Christie could also be better in the future as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: Tbf my responses are more for the guys who were suggesting that he's far better than Scott brown and that none of our current centre midfielders are as good as him. Mcginn and mctominay are probably on a par with him atm and could go onto be better than him. Christie could also be better in the future as well. I'm prepared to have a discussion on whether he was a better player than Brown is or more accurately was. I can see arguments on both sides, personally I don't agree with you. Probably because the type of player that Ferguson was, is the type I like to watch. To suggest that either McGinn or McTominay are as good as Ferguson, well that might be the case but then Barry is 41 and hasn't played for about 5 years. To suggest that they're as good now than he was at his peak - or indeed as good as Brown was - doesn't stand up to any scrutiny other than "because I say so". Who knows what they will do in the future, hopefully great things. McGinn in particular I'm a big fan and think he has a really good chance of being looked at in the same light as Ferguson, Brown, Lambert and Fletcher by the time he retires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, aaid said: I'm prepared to have a discussion on whether he was a better player than Brown is or more accurately was. I can see arguments on both sides, personally I don't agree with you. Probably because the type of player that Ferguson was, is the type I like to watch. To suggest that either McGinn or McTominay are as good as Ferguson, well that might be the case but then Barry is 41 and hasn't played for about 5 years. To suggest that they're as good now than he was at his peak - or indeed as good as Brown was - doesn't stand up to any scrutiny other than "because I say so". Who knows what they will do in the future, hopefully great things. McGinn in particular I'm a big fan and think he has a really good chance of being looked at in the same light as Ferguson, Brown, Lambert and Fletcher by the time he retires. I just assumed we were comparing mcginn and mctominay to Ferguson at his peak. I think mctominay is showing with his last two performances and the fact man utd haven't lost to a top 6 side when he's played that he's on a par with Ferguson at his peak and has the potential to be better than him. Mcginn has been impressive in the epl so far but has a little bit to go to prove he's better than Ferguson but he can't be that far off as alot of the top English clubs are interested in him. Our midfield options right now are as strong as the mid noughties imo and they are all relatively young so should be able to get better and improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: I just assumed we were comparing mcginn and mctominay to Ferguson at his peak. I think mctominay is showing with his last two performances and the fact man utd haven't lost to a top 6 side when he's played that he's on a par with Ferguson at his peak and has the potential to be better than him. So based on two games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 1 minute ago, aaid said: So based on two games. No, it's based on his performances for man utd over the last two seasons. Alot of top European clubs would be interested in buying him if utd were to sell him. Hes only 22 and is undroppable for man utd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 1 minute ago, mccaughey85 said: No, it's based on his performances for man utd over the last two seasons. Alot of top European clubs would be interested in buying him if utd were to sell him. Hes only 22 and is undroppable for man utd. As I said before - that he's undroppable at Man Utd says as much about the competition for places there as it does about him - and that's not to suggest that he doesn't deserve his place. You can also take any transfer speculation on any player with a huge pinch of salt. It means nothing In comparison. By the time Ferguson was the same age as McTominey is now, Ferguson had played twice as many first team games. He'd also won the SPL twice, Scottish Cup and League Cup and been named both Young Player of the Year and Player of the Year. By comparison, McTominay has put in good performances in a number of matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, aaid said: As I said before - that he's undroppable at Man Utd says as much about the competition for places there as it does about him - and that's not to suggest that he doesn't deserve his place. You can also take any transfer speculation on any player with a huge pinch of salt. It means nothing In comparison. By the time Ferguson was the same age as McTominey is now, Ferguson had played twice as many first team games. He'd also won the SPL twice, Scottish Cup and League Cup and been named both Young Player of the Year and Player of the Year. By comparison, McTominay has put in good performances in a number of matches. Would top European clubs want to buy Ferguson at 22, the answer is probably not. If Scottish trophies are the benchmark then Callum McGregor and Scott brown are better than guys like rashford or Harry Kane. Man utd might be poor at the moment but mctominay is their best performer and would be able to play for most top European clubs. Bossing the midfield against psg or man city is a bit more demanding than st mirren or Kilmarnock. There's a reason Ferguson went to Blackburn at his peak whereas mctominay is playing for man utd at 22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 15 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: Would top European clubs want to buy Ferguson at 22, the answer is probably not. If Scottish trophies are the benchmark then Callum McGregor and Scott brown are better than guys like rashford or Harry Kane. Man utd might be poor at the moment but mctominay is their best performer and would be able to play for most top European clubs. Bossing the midfield against psg or man city is a bit more demanding than st mirren or Kilmarnock. There's a reason Ferguson went to Blackburn at his peak whereas mctominay is playing for man utd at 22. Trophies are one measure arguably winning the Player of the Year is more important as that means - or at least suggests - he was the best player in the league over a whole season. McTominay didn't even win the player of the year at Man Utd last season - he may do this year, but again that will probably be more down to the lack of other contenders. You need to take the blinkers off where McTominay is concerned he's playing - well - for a bang average Man Utd team that's current 22 points behind the league leaders. For all that he played well last night against Man City, he wasn't so hot a month ago when Bournemouth beat them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, aaid said: Trophies are one measure arguably winning the Player of the Year is more important as that means - or at least suggests - he was the best player in the league over a whole season. McTominay didn't even win the player of the year at Man Utd last season - he may do this year, but again that will probably be more down to the lack of other contenders. You need to take the blinkers off where McTominay is concerned he's playing - well - for a bang average Man Utd team that's current 22 points behind the league leaders. For all that he played well last night against Man City, he wasn't so hot a month ago when Bournemouth beat them. Loads of average players have won the Scottish player of the year. McNamara, commons, higdon etc. Winning trophies with rangers isn't hard either. You just have to be at rangers or Celtics in the 2000s and you would of been guaranteed medals in Scotland. We have a player who could play for any team in Europe and is one of the best midfielders in the epl but somehow he isn't as good as Barry Ferguson who went to Blackburn rovers in his prime. Sorry but it's silly to suggest he's not as good as Ferguson who's spent his career in the comfort of the spl playing against Kilmarnock and Motherwell. Bossing the midfield against Tottenham and man city suggests he's already at Ferguson's level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboman Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Quote I think anyone who believe Mctominey should not be starting for us needs a good wake up call, he is miles ahead of Macgregor or jack. a midfield 5 of Mctominey, jack (only because he likes a tackle more) Mcginn, forrest and christie would set us up very nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudScot Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said: Sorry but he really wasn't. Everyone has their own opinion. Personally I think Ferguson & Lambert were streaks ahead of the likes of Brown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 1 minute ago, mccaughey85 said: Loads of average players have won the Scottish player of the year. McNamara, commons, higdon etc. Winning trophies with rangers isn't hard either. You just have to be at rangers or Celtics in the 2000s and you would of been guaranteed medals in Scotland. We have a player who could play for any team in Europe and is one of the best midfielders in the epl but somehow he isn't as good as Barry Ferguson who went to Blackburn rovers in his prime. Sorry but it's silly to suggest he's not as good as Ferguson who's spent his career in the comfort of the spl playing against Kilmarnock and Motherwell. Bossing the midfield against Tottenham and man city suggests he's already at Ferguson's level. I generally don't pay much attention to these ratings websites but I see on whoscored, McTominay got 6.85 for the game against Spurs. That doesn't exactly look like "bossing" the midfield. In fact Fred got a higher rating than McTominay. Basically your whole argument boils down to "He plays for Man Utd therefore he must be better". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceudmilefailte Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 21 hours ago, bigfingers said: Can we not tempt back Mr S. Fletcher? Can see him being in the squad and after all he helped us reach the playoffs so why not. Best all round contribution by a forward in the championship this year and higher rating than Mitrovic despite the latter scoring five more goals. I want him in the squad even if the happy clappers who accept failure don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, aaid said: I generally don't pay much attention to these ratings websites but I see on whoscored, McTominay got 6.85 for the game against Spurs. That doesn't exactly look like "bossing" the midfield. In fact Fred got a higher rating than McTominay. Basically your whole argument boils down to "He plays for Man Utd therefore he must be better". I am basing it on his performances v psg Liverpool, man city etc, man utd don't lose to a top 6 team while he's in the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 1 minute ago, ceudmilefailte said: Can see him being in the squad and after all he helped us reach the playoffs so why not. Best all round contribution by a forward in the championship this year and higher rating than Mitrovic despite the latter scoring five more goals. I want him in the squad even if the happy clappers who accept failure don't And yet - 4 goals in 31 internationals would suggest that other than against GIbraltar, he's unlikely to score goals at International level - unlike Mitrovic - 34 in 55 (30 in 53 if you want to be fair and knock off a couple against Luxembourg for balance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceudmilefailte Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: I am basing it on his performances v psg Liverpool, man city etc, man utd don't lose to a top 6 team while he's in the side. Best not to mention the fact that during the three games he missed through his recent injury Man Utd drew two and lost one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: I am basing it on his performances v psg Liverpool, man city etc, man utd don't lose to a top 6 team while he's in the side. Barcelona not a top team then? I mean, if you're going to include PSG in that list then surely you going to have Barcelona as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceudmilefailte Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 1 minute ago, aaid said: And yet - 4 goals in 31 internationals would suggest that other than against GIbraltar, he's unlikely to score goals at International level - unlike Mitrovic - 34 in 55 (30 in 53 if you want to be fair and knock off a couple against Luxembourg for balance). Fletcher is reaching his peak, Mitrovic is in decline= easy win😉 I know i might not be right, but I really feel we need to have defensive ability from every player. It's also stuck in my mind something that was said about how he might become a central defender in his later career( hasn't and won't happen). Handy to have an extra centre half appear every time the opposition have a set piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 (edited) Some interesting debates that ultimately don’t mean very much. Brown v Ferguson McTominay and McGinn v previous midfields. If this generation of midfielders are “quality” then they can show that over the next few campaigns. I’m not convinced they are at a higher or even comparable level to the teams we’ll have to beat to qualify for tournaments, the only real benchmark that matters Edited December 8, 2019 by ParisInAKilt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviebee Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Anybody else amazed that the ongoing McTominay debate hasn't prompted a The Dark Knight resurrection? Unless of course he already lurks among us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 54 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said: Fletcher is reaching his peak, Mitrovic is in decline= easy win😉 I know i might not be right, but I really feel we need to have defensive ability from every player. It's also stuck in my mind something that was said about how he might become a central defender in his later career( hasn't and won't happen). Handy to have an extra centre half appear every time the opposition have a set piece. Now I know you're taking the piss. Fletcher 32 at his peak, Mitrovic 25, in decline. I know we're not blessed with a huge amount of talent up front but to expect Steven Fletcher to make a blind bit of difference is the triumph of hope over experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceudmilefailte Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Griffiths not on bench today. Any Celtic fans want to comment on Morgan as a centre forward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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