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6 hours ago, Nobby said:

Well we'll find out one day that's for sure, personally I'm of the opinion that i'll just try and be a good human being and see where that gets me.  Now i'm fairly certain because of your belief structure you believe that to be hell and I respect that. However i just cant help but believe that if there really is a deity that created us, that he's going to send everyone that doesn't follow your path via the bible to hell. Take the aboriginal people of Australia or for that matter North America. A group of people who have been shat upon royally by the white europeans shooting them and then telling them "thou shalt no kill" waving a bible at them. If he knows in their hearts they are good people and presumably he does. sending them to an eternity of damnation seems a tad excessive . I have a faith that its the message he wants people to understand and live by.  

Are you sure? If death is the end (annihilation), surely you would not know: not only that, there would be no 'you' to know. 

If you are asleep (without dreaming) you don't know you're asleep, you don't know who 'you' are, or that 'you' ever existed. 

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17 hours ago, exile said:

Are you sure? If death is the end (annihilation), surely you would not know: not only that, there would be no 'you' to know. 

If you are asleep (without dreaming) you don't know you're asleep, you don't know who 'you' are, or that 'you' ever existed. 

True but as i drift off into that sleep of annihilation i'll hopefully reflect on my boys living on through me. Unless of course i get hit by a bus in which case i probably wont have the time 😉  

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16 minutes ago, Nobby said:

True but as i drift off into that sleep of annihilation i'll hopefully reflect on my boys living on through me. Unless of course i get hit by a bus in which case i probably wont have the time 😉  

You mean 'me living on through my boys' dontcha!

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On 7/8/2019 at 7:32 AM, Nobby said:

Well we'll find out one day that's for sure...

Correct.

On 7/8/2019 at 7:32 AM, Nobby said:

...personally I'm of the opinion that i'll just try and be a good human being and see where that gets me.  

I can tell you now that that plan will only take you to hell. 

You won't get to heaven by works, or on your own strength or merit.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23

Only those deemed sinless will be welcomed into heaven.

And since none of us are, by accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross, we will be 'washed whiter than snow'.

And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Luke 18:19

We are sinners who need a Saviour.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

On 7/8/2019 at 7:32 AM, Nobby said:

Now i'm fairly certain because of your belief structure you believe that to be hell and I respect that. 

I do, not because I'm not 'voting' on what I want the outcomes to be, but because I've discovered the truth about what the outcomes are.

On 7/8/2019 at 7:32 AM, Nobby said:

However i just cant help but believe that if there really is a deity that created us, that he's going to send everyone that doesn't follow your path via the bible to hell.   

As previously stated... God doesn't send people to hell. 

People go to hell because they embrace the world (sin) and knowingly, willingly reject God.

God is as much love as He is justice.

On 7/8/2019 at 7:32 AM, Nobby said:

 Take the aboriginal people of Australia or for that matter North America. A group of people who have been shat upon royally by the white europeans shooting them and then telling them "thou shalt no kill" waving a bible at them. 

Murderers aren't Bible-believing Christians, though.

On 7/8/2019 at 7:32 AM, Nobby said:

If he knows in their hearts they are good people and presumably he does...  

As already shown, God knows that none of us are good.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9

"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” Mark 7: 21-23

On 7/8/2019 at 7:32 AM, Nobby said:

...sending them to an eternity of damnation seems a tad excessive.  

People send themselves to hell.

A sentence from God can only be just.

On 7/8/2019 at 7:32 AM, Nobby said:

 I have a faith that its the message he wants people to understand and live by.  

God is building His Kingdom.

His 'church' is unstoppable.

1. Study His Word.

2. Know and understand His Word.

3. Live His Word.

4. Spread/share His Word.

Jesus is the only answer. :)

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4 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

Correct.

I can tell you now that that plan will only take you to hell. 

You won't get to heaven by works, or on your own strength or merit.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23

Only those deemed sinless will be welcomed into heaven.

And since none of us are, by accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross, we will be 'washed whiter than snow'.

And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Luke 18:19

We are sinners who need a Saviour.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I do, not because I'm not 'voting' on what I want the outcomes to be, but because I've discovered the truth about what the outcomes are.

As previously stated... God doesn't send people to hell. 

People go to hell because they embrace the world (sin) and knowingly, willingly reject God.

God is as much love as He is justice.

Murderers aren't Bible-believing Christians, though.

As already shown, God knows that none of us are good.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9

"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” Mark 7: 21-23

People send themselves to hell.

A sentence from God can only be just.

God is building His Kingdom.

His 'church' is unstoppable.

1. Study His Word.

2. Know and understand His Word.

3. Live His Word.

4. Spread/share His Word.

Jesus is the only answer. :)

So, would like to give us your best estimate of the percentages going to heaven and hell?

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44 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said:

I couldn't know the exact numbers.

'Many' and 'few' is all that we've got to go by.

So some person who spends their life doing all they can for charitable causes, helping the poor and needy and just generally being the type of selfless person we'd all like to be, is going to roast forever and ever if they don't believe in God or the afterlife?  I really can't see that being right and sincerely hope it's not.

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19 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

 

Jesus is the only answer. :)

A muslim would disagree.  Lets take the example of a pious muslim individual who lives his life by the Koran. He has been raised in a muslim family  and church to believe that his holy book is the only way to get to heaven and his holy book is the word of God. He would raise the same arguments you do about how his book tells the truth and is infallible and would justify any question  with an answer using his or her interpretation  just as you would using your book. Now this individual leads a good life according to the values enshrined in the koran, hes a good husband ,father and neighbour and does his bit to help when he can and worships god (which is the same one as yours i believe) according to the book he believes is his word. 

Where we differ is that I believe that this man is as likely as an equivalent christian to get his pass into heaven . If a deity can create all of this I simply don't believe that he wouldn't let him in because he was given the wrong book to read as a child . Presumably he would make an exception for tribes in the amazon who have never seen a bible  ?  presumably if/when armageddon happens all children are getting in regardless of religion ? there's two exceptions , why not more ?

Now I know you will probably come back at me with various bible quotes to back up your  belief and im fairly certain a muslim believer could and would do the same. Bottom line is I'm sure your getting in and the bloke above and i'm pretty chilled about my chances too. 

We'll agree to disagree 😉 

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20 hours ago, daviebee said:

So some person who spends their life doing all they can for charitable causes, helping the poor and needy and just generally being the type of selfless person we'd all like to be, is going to roast forever and ever if they don't believe in God or the afterlife?  I really can't see that being right and sincerely hope it's not.

If that person knowingly, willingly rejects the deity of Jesus Christ, His sinless life, His sacrifice on the cross for all sin, and His resurrection, and/or puts his faith in their own human works, then no, they won't have a chance of being welcomed into heaven.

Once again... Salvation isn't about who we are (great or small) or what we contribute (nothing, btw!). It's believing in your heart Who Jesus is and what He did.

If the Bible had to be summed up in one verse...

“For God so loved the world, that He gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

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6 hours ago, Nobby said:

A muslim would disagree.  

And they'd be wrong.

It's like... having the right to believe that 2+2=5 is the same thing as 2+2 actually being 5 (which it obviously isn't).

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

Lets take the example of a pious muslim individual who lives his life by the Koran.

OK, but again... is the Qur'an just as valid as The Holy Bible?

Is one 'holy' book just as valid as every other 'holy' book?

That would be like saying that every answer to the question of "What does 2 + 2 total?" is just as valid as every other answer.

Meaning that 2+2= 3 and 2+2=5 are just as valid as 2+2=4

The thing to do is to actually look into Islam...

  1. Does the Qur'an define the word "Allah"? No.
  2. Was the name "Allah" revealed for the first time in the Qur'an? No
  3. Does the Qur'an assume that its readers have already heard of "Allah"? Yes
  4. Should we look into pre-Islamic Arabian history to see who "Allah" was before Muhammad? Yes.
  5. According to Muslim tradition, was Muhammad born into a Christian family and tribe? No
  6. Was he born into a Jewish family or tribe? No
  7. What religion was his family and tribe? Pagans
  8. What was the name of his pagan father? Abdullah (Abd + Allah)
  9. Did Muhammad participate in the pagan ceremonies of Mecca? Yes
  10. Did the Arabs in pre-Islamic times worship 360 gods? Yes
  11. Did the pagans Arabs worship the sun, moon and the stars? Yes
  12. Did the Arabs built temples to the Moon-god? Yes
  13. Did different Arab tribes give the Moon-god different names/titles? Yes
  14. What were some of the names/titles? Sin, Hubul, Ilumquh, Al-ilah.
  15. Was the title "al-ilah" (the god) used of the Moon-god? Yes
  16. Was the word "Allah" derived from "al-ilah?" Yes
  17. Was the pagan "Allah" a high god in a pantheon of deities? Yes.
  18. Was he worshipped at the Kabah? Yes.
  19. Was Allah only one of many Meccan gods? Yes
  20. Did they place a statue of Hubul on top of the Kabah? Yes.
  21. At that time was Hubul considered the Moon-god? Yes.
  22. Was the Kabah thus the "house of the Moon-god"? Yes.
  23. Did the name "Allah" eventually replace that of Hubul as the name of the Moon god? Yes.
  24. Did they call the Kabah the "house of Allah"? Yes
  25. Did the pagans develop religious rites in connection with the worship of their gods? Yes.
  26. Did the pagans practice the Pilgrimage, the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc.? Yes.
  27. Did Muhammad command his followers to participate in these pagan ceremonies while the pagans were still in control of Mecca? Yes (Yusuf Ali, fn. 214, pg. 78).
  28. Did Islam go on to adopt these pagan religious rites? Yes. (Yusuf Ali: fn. 223 pg. 80).
  29. Were al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat called "the daughters of Allah"? Yes.
  30. Did the Qur'an at one point tell Muslims to worship al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat? Yes. In Surah 53:19-20.
  31. Have those verses been "abrogated" out of the present Qur'an? Yes.
  32. What were they called? "The Satanic Verses." Yes.
  33. Was the crescent moon an ancient pagan symbol of the Moon-god throughout the ancient world? Yes.
  34. Was it the religious symbol of the Moon-god in Arabia? Yes
  35. Were stars also used as pagan symbols of the daughers of Allah? Yes
  36. Did the Jews or the Christians of Arabia use the crescent moon with several stars next to it as symbols of their faith? No
  37. Did Islam adopt the pagan crescent moon and stars as it religious symbol? Yes.
  38. As Islam developed over the centuries, did it adopt pagan names, pagan ceremonies, pagan temples and pagan symbols? Yes
  39. Is it possible that most Muslims do not know the pagan sources of the symbols and rites of their own religion? Yes.
  40. Are they shocked to find out the true sources of their ceremonies and stories? Yes
  41. Can Islam be the religion of Abraham if it is derived from paganism? No
  42. What then is Islam? A modern version of one of the ancient fertility cults.
  43. Is the "Allah" of the Qur'an, the Christian God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? No
  44. Do the Jews say that the Muslim "Allah" is their God too? No
  45. Then whose god is Allah? Paganism
6 hours ago, Nobby said:

He has been raised in a muslim family and church mosque to believe that his holy book is the only way to get to heaven and his holy book is the word of God. 

OK

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

 He would raise the same arguments you do about how his book tells the truth and is infallible and would justify any question with an answer using his or her interpretation  just as you would using your book. 

He couldn't.

For starters... Muhammad isn't portrayed as sinless.

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

Now this individual leads a good life according to the values enshrined in the koran, hes a good husband ,father and neighbour and does his bit to help when he can and worships god (which is the same one as yours i believe) according to the book he believes is his word. 

His works and his religion won't save him.

Ask a muslim if Allah had a son called 'Jesus' and you'll see that we worship different entities. 

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

Where we differ is that I believe that this man is as likely as an equivalent christian to get his pass into heaven.

Heaven is for believers in Jesus' deity.

There is no 'Allah' and by default there is no 'equivalent' heaven awaiting muslims.

One God... one heaven.

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

If a deity can create all of this I simply don't believe that he wouldn't let him in because he was given the wrong book to read as a child.

His heart would be a bigger obstacle than his book.

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6 hours ago, Nobby said:

Presumably he would make an exception for tribes in the amazon who have never seen a bible  ? 

The members of those tribes would also have a heart and a conscience.

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

presumably if/when armageddon happens all children are getting in regardless of religion ?

Children not yet reaching the age of accountability get in.

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

there's two exceptions , why not more ?

Everyone will be judged fairly.

God won't make any mistakes.

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

Now I know you will probably come back at me with various bible quotes to back up your belief and im fairly certain a muslim believer could and would do the same.

No Bible verses this post from me.

(Verses from the Qur'an carry no weight.)

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

Bottom line is I'm sure your getting in and the bloke above and i'm pretty chilled about my chances too. 

Please don't be deceived.

Hell is real.

(This isn't a game of patty-cake.)

God is not to be trifled with.

6 hours ago, Nobby said:

We'll agree to disagree 😉 

No, not yet.

You have more info to work with now.

(Praying for you and your family btw.)  :) 

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10 hours ago, Nobby said:

A muslim would disagree.  Lets take the example of a pious muslim individual who lives his life by the Koran. He has been raised in a muslim family  and church to believe that his holy book is the only way to get to heaven and his holy book is the word of God. He would raise the same arguments you do about how his book tells the truth and is infallible and would justify any question  with an answer using his or her interpretation  just as you would using your book. Now this individual leads a good life according to the values enshrined in the koran, hes a good husband ,father and neighbour and does his bit to help when he can and worships god (which is the same one as yours i believe) according to the book he believes is his word. 

Where we differ is that I believe that this man is as likely as an equivalent christian to get his pass into heaven . If a deity can create all of this I simply don't believe that he wouldn't let him in because he was given the wrong book to read as a child . Presumably he would make an exception for tribes in the amazon who have never seen a bible  ?  presumably if/when armageddon happens all children are getting in regardless of religion ? there's two exceptions , why not more ?

Now I know you will probably come back at me with various bible quotes to back up your  belief and im fairly certain a muslim believer could and would do the same. Bottom line is I'm sure your getting in and the bloke above and i'm pretty chilled about my chances too. 

We'll agree to disagree 😉 

Do you ever wonder why you bother?

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11 hours ago, Nobby said:

Now I know you will probably come back at me with various bible quotes to back up your belief...

40 minutes ago, exile said:

Do you ever wonder why you bother?

4 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

No Bible verses this post from me.

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, exile said:

Do you ever wonder why you bother?

I'd say a genuine search for the answer to "What is it all about?"

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12 hours ago, exile said:

Do you ever wonder why you bother?

Scotty's a nice bloke and his heart appears to be in the right place and you can't doubt his faith. Personally I disagree with quite a bit of what he says but always happy to have a debate !!

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16 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

 

You have more info to work with now.

(Praying for you and your family btw.)  :) 

All help gratefully received 😉 and the best to you and yours  

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17 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

And they'd be wrong.

It's like... having the right to believe that 2+2=5 is the same thing as 2+2 actually being 5 (which it obviously isn't).

OK, but again... is the Qur'an just as valid as The Holy Bible?

Is one 'holy' book just as valid as every other 'holy' book?

That would be like saying that every answer to the question of "What does 2 + 2 total?" is just as valid as every other answer.

Meaning that 2+2= 3 and 2+2=5 are just as valid as 2+2=4

The thing to do is to actually look into Islam...

  1. Does the Qur'an define the word "Allah"? No.
  2. Was the name "Allah" revealed for the first time in the Qur'an? No
  3. Does the Qur'an assume that its readers have already heard of "Allah"? Yes
  4. Should we look into pre-Islamic Arabian history to see who "Allah" was before Muhammad? Yes.
  5. According to Muslim tradition, was Muhammad born into a Christian family and tribe? No
  6. Was he born into a Jewish family or tribe? No
  7. What religion was his family and tribe? Pagans
  8. What was the name of his pagan father? Abdullah (Abd + Allah)
  9. Did Muhammad participate in the pagan ceremonies of Mecca? Yes
  10. Did the Arabs in pre-Islamic times worship 360 gods? Yes
  11. Did the pagans Arabs worship the sun, moon and the stars? Yes
  12. Did the Arabs built temples to the Moon-god? Yes
  13. Did different Arab tribes give the Moon-god different names/titles? Yes
  14. What were some of the names/titles? Sin, Hubul, Ilumquh, Al-ilah.
  15. Was the title "al-ilah" (the god) used of the Moon-god? Yes
  16. Was the word "Allah" derived from "al-ilah?" Yes
  17. Was the pagan "Allah" a high god in a pantheon of deities? Yes.
  18. Was he worshipped at the Kabah? Yes.
  19. Was Allah only one of many Meccan gods? Yes
  20. Did they place a statue of Hubul on top of the Kabah? Yes.
  21. At that time was Hubul considered the Moon-god? Yes.
  22. Was the Kabah thus the "house of the Moon-god"? Yes.
  23. Did the name "Allah" eventually replace that of Hubul as the name of the Moon god? Yes.
  24. Did they call the Kabah the "house of Allah"? Yes
  25. Did the pagans develop religious rites in connection with the worship of their gods? Yes.
  26. Did the pagans practice the Pilgrimage, the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc.? Yes.
  27. Did Muhammad command his followers to participate in these pagan ceremonies while the pagans were still in control of Mecca? Yes (Yusuf Ali, fn. 214, pg. 78).
  28. Did Islam go on to adopt these pagan religious rites? Yes. (Yusuf Ali: fn. 223 pg. 80).
  29. Were al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat called "the daughters of Allah"? Yes.
  30. Did the Qur'an at one point tell Muslims to worship al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat? Yes. In Surah 53:19-20.
  31. Have those verses been "abrogated" out of the present Qur'an? Yes.
  32. What were they called? "The Satanic Verses." Yes.
  33. Was the crescent moon an ancient pagan symbol of the Moon-god throughout the ancient world? Yes.
  34. Was it the religious symbol of the Moon-god in Arabia? Yes
  35. Were stars also used as pagan symbols of the daughers of Allah? Yes
  36. Did the Jews or the Christians of Arabia use the crescent moon with several stars next to it as symbols of their faith? No
  37. Did Islam adopt the pagan crescent moon and stars as it religious symbol? Yes.
  38. As Islam developed over the centuries, did it adopt pagan names, pagan ceremonies, pagan temples and pagan symbols? Yes
  39. Is it possible that most Muslims do not know the pagan sources of the symbols and rites of their own religion? Yes.
  40. Are they shocked to find out the true sources of their ceremonies and stories? Yes
  41. Can Islam be the religion of Abraham if it is derived from paganism? No
  42. What then is Islam? A modern version of one of the ancient fertility cults.
  43. Is the "Allah" of the Qur'an, the Christian God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? No
  44. Do the Jews say that the Muslim "Allah" is their God too? No
  45. Then whose god is Allah? Paganism

OK

He couldn't.

For starters... Muhammad isn't portrayed as sinless.

His works and his religion won't save him.

Ask a muslim if Allah had a son called 'Jesus' and you'll see that we worship different entities. 

Heaven is for believers in Jesus' deity.

There is no 'Allah' and by default there is no 'equivalent' heaven awaiting muslims.

One God... one heaven.

His heart would be a bigger obstacle than his book.

Apart from that but?

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2 hours ago, Nobby said:

Scotty's a nice bloke and his heart appears to be in the right place and you can't doubt his faith. Personally I disagree with quite a bit of what he says but always happy to have a debate !!

The thing is though, I'm doing my best to tell you what God is saying.

We're not (futilely) voting on what we do and do not like concerning existence, but supposed to be discovering and learning why the human experience is.

Once we establish intelligent design, we should want to get to know who that designer is.

We get to know God by getting to know Jesus, and we get to know Jesus by reading and studying the Bible.

2 hours ago, Nobby said:

All help gratefully received 😉 and the best to you and yours  

:ok:

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On 7/10/2019 at 4:32 PM, Scotty CTA said:

 

People send themselves to hell.

A sentence from God can only be just.

God is building His Kingdom.

His 'church' is unstoppable.

1. Study His Word.

2. Know and understand His Word.

3. Live His Word.

4. Spread/share His Word.

Jesus is the only answer. :)

Heaven seems a bit too much like hard work Scotty, think I may just have to  take my chances with Hell . However if there is a heaven you most certainly will have earned your place there 🙂

Anyone got any more ghost stories or unexplained phenomena ?    

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27 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Heaven seems a bit too much like hard work Scotty, think I may just have to  take my chances with Hell . However if there is a heaven you most certainly will have earned your place there 🙂

    

I'm not so sure about that. I have a feeling that the plan is for all the religious folk will go the other way. It's the biggest conspiracy of them all. And Scotty fell for it.

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15 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I'm not so sure about that. I have a feeling that the plan is for all the religious folk will go the other way. It's the biggest conspiracy of them all. And Scotty fell for it.

Its gonna be so exciting to find out. If I get stopped at the gates of heaven I am blaming you.

‘’It wisnae me Peter,  that big buffoon Orraloon from the TAMB convinced me it was a conspiracy theory. ‘’

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3 hours ago, Kirk said:

This was a decent thread until it got all Scotty Jesusy

I suppose ‘Life after Death’ was always going to present a risk. I have seen threads ‘turn’ for a lot less 🙄

 

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