exile Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/12/2019 at 12:29 PM, Nobby said: Scotty's a nice bloke and his heart appears to be in the right place and you can't doubt his faith. Personally I disagree with quite a bit of what he says but always happy to have a debate !! Ok 👍 My point (an aside really) was simply because you seemed to be signalling that you'd rather not receive a cut-and-dried (cut and pasted?) "chapter and verse" type response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/11/2019 at 7:40 PM, Scotty CTA said: Children not yet reaching the age of accountability get in. Back to the numbers again. I've seen you make that statement a couple of times, would you care to stick an age on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) It would be beneficial for once to discuss this 'philosophically' at least. I was on a long bus journey 30 feckin years ago now across the USA and met an oxbridge (forget which one) student studying philosophy, a brainy, brainy guy. He was saying that just to be able to barely wrestle with this question in philosophy you had to be acceptably literate in all the high end sciences. That is where these folk were having this version of the debate and that is the scientific language they are using. To try to discuss it using bible quotes and talking about 'God' is relatively stone age technology. Edited July 15, 2019 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviebee Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/13/2019 at 11:33 AM, TDYER63 said: Heaven seems a bit too much like hard work Scotty, think I may just have to take my chances with Hell . However if there is a heaven you most certainly will have earned your place there 🙂 Anyone got any more ghost stories or unexplained phenomena ? How about utterly bizarre coincidences or should that get a thread of its own? Got 3 from my own lifetime, 2 of which happened "on tour" so maybe it should go in TA Specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 8 hours ago, daviebee said: How about utterly bizarre coincidences or should that get a thread of its own? Got 3 from my own lifetime, 2 of which happened "on tour" so maybe it should go in TA Specific. I suppose it depends on their bizarreness in relation to spookiness . If you saw a rainbow just over Wembley, whilst sober, on a hot day and the moment before Leigh Griffiths scored his second free kick against England then that is spooky enough to post in this thread. If , on the other hand, you saw the ghost of Jock Stein hover ( that in itself would be a small miracle) above Leigh and after 10 pints of Stella then that can go to TA Specific 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 12 hours ago, thplinth said: It would be beneficial for once to discuss this 'philosophically' at least. I was on a long bus journey 30 feckin years ago now across the USA and met an oxbridge (forget which one) student studying philosophy, a brainy, brainy guy. He was saying that just to be able to barely wrestle with this question in philosophy you had to be acceptably literate in all the high end sciences. That is where these folk were having this version of the debate and that is the scientific language they are using. To try to discuss it using bible quotes and talking about 'God' is relatively stone age technology. Go on then, what are your thoughts on the subject ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMcD Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, TDYER63 said: I suppose it depends on their bizarreness in relation to spookiness . If you saw a rainbow just over Wembley, whilst sober, on a hot day and the moment before Leigh Griffiths scored his second free kick against England then that is spooky enough to post in this thread. If , on the other hand, you saw the ghost of Jock Stein hover ( that in itself would be a small miracle) above Leigh and after 10 pints of Stella then that can go to TA Specific 🙂 If you were in Wembley when the 2nd free kick went in, you were in the wrong stadium. Edited July 16, 2019 by SteveMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 24 minutes ago, SteveMcD said: If you were in Wembley when the 2nd free kick went in, you were in the wrong stadium. 😂😂 , it would however have been a bizarre coincidence ! 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 23 hours ago, thplinth said: It would be beneficial for once to discuss this 'philosophically' at least. I was on a long bus journey 30 feckin years ago now across the USA and met an oxbridge (forget which one) student studying philosophy, a brainy, brainy guy. He was saying that just to be able to barely wrestle with this question in philosophy you had to be acceptably literate in all the high end sciences. That is where these folk were having this version of the debate and that is the scientific language they are using. Here's a brainy, brainy guy... “Einstein's relativity work is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists.” ― Nikola Tesla “The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.” ― Nikola Tesla “Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. ” ― Nikola Tesla 23 hours ago, thplinth said: To try to discuss it using bible quotes and talking about 'God' is relatively stone age technology. But truth none the less. If Creation is true (and it is) then it's true yesterday, today, and always. One can't categorise Creation to the point of it being a technology that would or could increase. You can't expect me to wait and get the OK from the brainy brains who have rejected truth in favour of scientism. "Claiming to be wise, they became fools," Romans 1:22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 11 hours ago, TDYER63 said: Go on then, what are your thoughts on the subject ? First thing is ditch the God word in the discussion. Hardly anyone is able to use that word without some form of absurd prejudice / baggage being carried in. It also makes you think, without reliance on the loaded word, well if there is something more to this 'world' (and by that I mean everything) what would be its likely nature. Clearly a commanding bearded guy on a throne with a staff is a pile of nonsense and not useful at all in exploring the subject. It would have to be something to all things. Something all the religions and philosophies of the world have been pointing to but describing in different ways. But you would have to go back to their original forms (or as best you can find) not the highly revised and corrupted forms they take today which are so easy to ridicule. This common source from what I can see is better described as an intelligence (another totally inadequate word). Although that term is risky as it triggers the 'intelligent design' folk and their adversaries. If it exists it seems to imbue everything or everything may in fact be made out of it. So the whole of the universe is an expression of it. If it exists it seems to be evolving, learning, making mistakes almost.. so it to call it a God is a misnomer, it is more like us. Maybe because we are a small part of it. As above so below and all that I don't know and I'll never know in this lifetime at least. Which is why it requires a 'leap' of faith one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 9 minutes ago, thplinth said: As above so below and all that. That's the satanic version of "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," 11 minutes ago, thplinth said: I don't know and I'll never know in this lifetime at least. Well, I already know. 13 minutes ago, thplinth said: Which is why it requires a 'leap' of faith one way or the other. Faith (in Truth) is the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Consciousness is probably a more accurate word than intelligence but you are never going to nail it down anymore than you are pi. (Scotty would you please naff off.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Truthers have just as much right to this public forum as the brainy, brainy hell-bound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: Truthers have just as much right to this public forum as the brainy, brainy hell-bound. Yeah, care to answer my question about the age of accountability? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 A person becomes 'accountable' at the point in their life when they (fully) know and understand what's 'right' and what's 'wrong'. God will judge (the hell-bound) from between that point and death. (Since everyone 'matures' differently, the age of accountability will vary.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 7/12/2019 at 3:06 PM, Scotty CTA said: The thing is though, I'm doing my best to tell you what God is saying. We're not (futilely) voting on what we do and do not like concerning existence, but supposed to be discovering and learning why the human experience is. Once we establish intelligent design, we should want to get to know who that designer is. We get to know God by getting to know Jesus, and we get to know Jesus by reading and studying the Bible. I don't doubt your intentions Scotty just your interpretation of the bible. I lost my nephew this year. He was 31 with a 7 month old baby girl. Now he wasn't what you would call religious in any way shape or form but was full of life and in the main a good person. His last act on this planet was to be an organ donor and so far we are up to six lives that he has saved/changed with various organs including a small child. Now according to your belief structure, hes gone to hell (and im genuinely not having a pop here) I just cant see it or believe that to be the case. His last act was to save others (it certainly inspired me to sign the donor register) after a relatively short but good life. If that does send you to hell all my friends and family will be there anyway !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wee-toon-red Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 If the only criteria for getting the thumbs up or thumbs down for heaven or hell is whether you believe in God, then God's a bit more self-absorbed than I'd expect an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful deity to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 I have had this debate on here before, mainly I think with Kimba, but I refuse to believe that if there is a god, s/he/it does not make decisions based on how you were as a human being. We are being asked to believe that a child abuser who ‘finds god’ in prison - let’s assume genuinely - gets in, but the Buddhist who won’t even swat a fly doesn’t because they backed the wrong deity. I don’t care what theological proof any Bible believers come up with, I think God/Allah/whoever, if they turn out to exist, just wants us to be as good as we can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Nobby said: I don't doubt your intentions Scotty just your interpretation of the bible. The Bible supports and explains the Bible. The reason I share the Word is to show the consistency in what it says (and that I'm not speaking off the top of my head). (Perhaps some difficult reading ahead, but the most loving thing that I can do is tell you the truth.) 2 hours ago, Nobby said: I lost my nephew this year. He was 31 with a 7 month old baby girl. I'm so sorry, Mate. My condolences. That's a tough one. 2 hours ago, Nobby said: Now he wasn't what you would call religious in any way shape or form but was full of life and in the main a good person. Thankfully I don't decide (or know) where individuals are spending eternity. That's up to God. He's qualified to judge, and we aren't. We'll be surprised by some of the people who are and aren't in heaven. As far as the world is concerned, there's lots of 'good' people, but God has a higher standard than the world. 3 hours ago, Nobby said: His last act on this planet was to be an organ donor and so far we are up to six lives that he has saved/changed with various organs including a small child. When Lazarus rose from the grave, he lived out his life... and died. Similarly, each of the 6 transplant recipients will live out their lives and die. The Christian focus isn't on this temporary life, but on eternity. 3 hours ago, Nobby said: Now according to your belief structure... The belief structure I accept as true, yes. 3 hours ago, Nobby said: ...hes gone to hell... I don't know if that's true. Only God knows his heart. 3 hours ago, Nobby said: I just cant see it or believe that to be the case. His last act was to save others... Temporarily prolonging life doesn't have any eternal benefit, though. How would that 'work' contribute to the building of God's church or kingdom? 3 hours ago, Nobby said: If that does send you to hell all my friends and family will be there anyway !!! So, at least you'll have each other? You absolutely won't. There isn't any 'relationships' in hell. You'll be alone. That's why it's called 'hell'. There's not one thing good about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 hour ago, wee-toon-red said: If the only criteria for getting the thumbs up or thumbs down for heaven or hell is whether you believe in God, then God's a bit more self-absorbed than I'd expect an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful deity to be. Yep, that's it. Simple. Just believe, by faith, in your heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Huddersfield said: I have had this debate on here before, mainly I think with Kimba, but I refuse to believe that if there is a god, s/he/it does not make decisions based on how you were as a human being. If God judged us on how we were as human beings, none of us would stand a chance. We are 'saved' by faith through Grace. And only after that are we rewarded for our works. 1 hour ago, Huddersfield said: We are being asked to believe that a child abuser who ‘finds god’ in prison - let’s assume genuinely - gets in, but the Buddhist who won’t even swat a fly doesn’t because they backed the wrong deity. One accepted Jesus as God (the Son) and the other rejected Jesus as God (the Son). That's the bottom line. 1 hour ago, Huddersfield said: I don’t care what theological proof any Bible believers come up with, I think God/Allah/whoever, if they turn out to exist, just wants us to be as good as we can be. We are all sinners, and we'll never be good enough. We need Jesus to wash away our sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 48 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: If God judged us on how we were as human beings, none of us would stand a chance. We are 'saved' by faith through Grace. And only after that are we rewarded for our works. One accepted Jesus as God (the Son) and the other rejected Jesus as God (the Son). That's the bottom line. We are all sinners, and we'll never be good enough. We need Jesus to wash away our sin. What do you envisage you'll be doing in Heaven on a daily, weekly, yearly, infinity basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Jim Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 6/30/2019 at 12:01 PM, TDYER63 said: Anyway that night we were walking up the street our apartment was in, it was dark as it was about midnight. My husband stopped me and pointed to an in shot. There was a wall of graffiti, mainly pictures rather than writing , however in the bottom left band corner of the wall the word TDYER was sitting as bold as the nose on my face. So much so we took a picture of it. That must have been a nice change for you and the hubby being in Italy at stupid ‘o’ clock not having to carry a drunken comatose chap back to his hotel 👀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 7 hours ago, Eisegerwind said: What do you envisage you'll be doing in Heaven on a daily, weekly, yearly, infinity basis. Managing the saved Aberdeen player's souls to perennial Champions League success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted July 18, 2019 Author Share Posted July 18, 2019 On 7/16/2019 at 7:36 PM, thplinth said: First thing is ditch the God word in the discussion. Hardly anyone is able to use that word without some form of absurd prejudice / baggage being carried in. It also makes you think, without reliance on the loaded word, well if there is something more to this 'world' (and by that I mean everything) what would be its likely nature. Clearly a commanding bearded guy on a throne with a staff is a pile of nonsense and not useful at all in exploring the subject. It would have to be something to all things. Something all the religions and philosophies of the world have been pointing to but describing in different ways. But you would have to go back to their original forms (or as best you can find) not the highly revised and corrupted forms they take today which are so easy to ridicule. This common source from what I can see is better described as an intelligence (another totally inadequate word). Although that term is risky as it triggers the 'intelligent design' folk and their adversaries. If it exists it seems to imbue everything or everything may in fact be made out of it. So the whole of the universe is an expression of it. If it exists it seems to be evolving, learning, making mistakes almost.. so it to call it a God is a misnomer, it is more like us. Maybe because we are a small part of it. As above so below and all that I don't know and I'll never know in this lifetime at least. Which is why it requires a 'leap' of faith one way or the other. I doubt I am intelligent enough for a conversation this deep but I agree, ‘God’ talk is an unhelpful diversion when considering where we are from and what happens when we die. I feel religions have been used, as someone else said, as a method of control. I wouldn't rule out them out completely as I don't know if there is a God or higher being but I am highly sceptical. The big bang holds more weight with me because science has proven so accurate in other areas . But there have been a lot of mistakes too and the universe is a huge unknown, how do we know they haven't made a mistake on the biggest unknown of all. So could both religion and science be wrong? On the specific subject of ‘is there life after death?’ . I find it interesting that some cells in your body continue to live for days, weeks even months after you die. In fact some work harder than when you are alive. This is a reasonably recent discovery. If this activity exists after death then who is to say something else isn’t going on that scientists have not yet discovered. I have to be honest though and say that it is unlikely there is life after death but I am probably a bit more open minded than I was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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