Starting 11 v Belgium

[vanderark14]

8 hours ago, Alan said:

I suported Steve Clarkes appointment but the last 2 games have been utterly dreadful.  Defensive.  Passive.  Weak.  

Absolute garbage 

 

[Squirrelhumper]

I'm not sure what folk see in McKenna btw.

[vanderark14]

6 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I'm not sure what folk see in McKenna btw.

Of course you dont 🙄🤣

[PASTA Mick]

Don't want to be too harsh but...

Marshall kept giving the ball away. 

McKenna wasn't great.

McGregor was poor, and shouldn't have started.  He needs a holiday. 

Russell ahead of Fraser made me want to cry. Awful decision. 

Three points this week was always the target so we can't moan too much. At some point we bed to try and win back the 3 points we lost in the first match. 

The September matches is when we will start to see the real impact of Clarke. Getting Tierney, Christie and Griffiths back could make a big difference. 

[Squirrelhumper]

29 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Of course you dont 🙄🤣

I take it you think his performances for Scotland are good enough?

I'll admit SOD for example isn't good enough for this level but we've little options. Souttar at least should be starting ahead of McKenna. My gran could have jumped higher for Lukaku's first goal.

[Squirrelhumper]

23 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

Don't want to be too harsh but...

Marshall kept giving the ball away. 

 

His kick outs infuriate me, they are just aimless, wild punts.

 

24 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

 

McKenna wasn't great.

 

Agreed, you aren't allowed to say that though.

 

24 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

 

Russell ahead of Fraser made me want to cry. Awful decision. 

 

I honestly don't know the thinking behind that one.

 

24 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

 

McGregor was poor, and shouldn't have started.  He needs a holiday. 

 

Agreed, although McGinn was poor on Saturday too, so dropping him and McGregor would maybe have left us a bit light.

[macy37]

1 minute ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I take it you think his performances for Scotland are good enough?

I'll admit SOD for example isn't good enough for this level but we've little options. Souttar at least should be starting ahead of McKenna. My gran could have jumped higher for Lukaku's first goal.

Everyone switched off, schoolboy stuff. Some of his performances have me thinking he might have a real future however many have me thinking that future is with Celtic going nowhere or Brentford doing the same.

[Squirrelhumper]

44 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Absolute garbage 

 

Agreed.

He's had a week with the team, I'm confident Clarke will have us ready for the play offs.

[Alan]

50 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Absolute garbage 

What's been positive about the 2 games?  Andy Robertsons goal?  McTominay showing promise?

I'm not saying Clarke is at risk.  I still want him in the job but the 2 games have been disappointing.  Strachan went offensive and challenged (and sometimes beat) teams like Croatia, Germany and England.  Culturally we cannot sit back and at Killie he pressed teams higher up the pitch and reduced options and made opposition make mistakes.

When we had the McKenna chance that was a great passing move up the pitch and the morale and confidence would have soared if we had scored and I'm confident we'd have had them pinned back in their own half.  

Need to be more positive and play higher up the park.

 

[vanderark14]

18 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I take it you think his performances for Scotland are good enough?

I'll admit SOD for example isn't good enough for this level but we've little options. Souttar at least should be starting ahead of McKenna. My gran could have jumped higher for Lukaku's first goal.

I'm willing to give inexperienced players like McKenna and o'Donnell the benefit of the doubt, they've both had good games and average games. I'd hardly single out McKenna for the goal. Lukaku had a running jump, McKenna didn't. He should have done better, correct but singling him out for criticism against a team as good as Belgium is ridiculous IMO.

McKenna is still a raw defender but his game is improving, I think he will need to move soon to get better.

[vanderark14]

17 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Agreed.

He's had a week with the team, I'm confident Clarke will have us ready for the play offs.

Exactly. I didn't think the Cyprus game was that bad. Robertson and Fraser were great going forward in the first half. Odonnell and Forrest joined that party in the 2nd half. If we had someone stronger with better movement upfront we would have scored earlier.

Last night is hardly the night to judge the the squad. Its Clarke's 2nd match after the confidence battering reign of eck

 

[vanderark14]

7 minutes ago, Alan said:

What's been positive about the 2 games?  Andy Robertsons goal?  McTominay showing promise?

I'm not saying Clarke is at risk.  I still want him in the job but the 2 games have been disappointing.  Strachan went offensive and challenged (and sometimes beat) teams like Croatia, Germany and England.  Culturally we cannot sit back and at Killie he pressed teams higher up the pitch and reduced options and made opposition make mistakes.

When we had the McKenna chance that was a great passing move up the pitch and the morale and confidence would have soared if we had scored and I'm confident we'd have had them pinned back in their own half.  

Need to be more positive and play higher up the park.

 

There was plenty to positive about and even if there wasn't, give the guy and the team a chance. 

If you're looking for instant fixes and immediate succes may I suggest supporting Barcelona, real Madrid, man city or some other super rich club instead of following Scotland 

Clarke has a lot of work to do and he will know it. Both those games went exactly how most thought they would, the Cyprus game was nowhere near as poor as you are making out.

[Alan]

7 hours ago, Sempre said:

Support tonight was terrific, best I've heard at a Scotland away game for a long time. Loads of new songs. Was bouncing pre match, all through the match, and put into the streets afterwards.

Was a lot of new faces tonight - lots of young folk. Spoke to people who said it was their first away game. Going down to zero points likely helped. 

Badly needed.  The support has been stuck in the same 1990's loop for too long.    

[Arbroath1320]

23 minutes ago, Alan said:

What's been positive about the 2 games?  Andy Robertsons goal?  McTominay showing promise?

I'm not saying Clarke is at risk.  I still want him in the job but the 2 games have been disappointing.  Strachan went offensive and challenged (and sometimes beat) teams like Croatia, Germany and England.  Culturally we cannot sit back and at Killie he pressed teams higher up the pitch and reduced options and made opposition make mistakes.

When we had the McKenna chance that was a great passing move up the pitch and the morale and confidence would have soared if we had scored and I'm confident we'd have had them pinned back in their own half.  

Need to be more positive and play higher up the park.

 

We needed to be more positive and play higher up the park so Hazard could hit us on the counter-attack with lots of space to run into. Great idea.

[Caledonian Craig]

Under Eck we were beaten 4-0 at home to Belgium. Last night we lost 3-0 away to Belgium in a competitive match and with our best player missing. Seems like improvement to me.

[er yir macaroon]

McKenna is currently much the same level as the other youngish centre halves. He needs to move in the summer and see how he coped against better players. He has pace and power on his side and will learn from last night.

I’m very surprised there is not more consternation that Harry Souttar has switched to Australia. He may or may not have been the answer but at 6 ft 7 in wouldn’t have been beaten to the jump, even if standing still.

[stocky]

10 hours ago, Alan said:

I suported Steve Clarkes appointment but the last 2 games have been utterly dreadful.  Defensive.  Passive.  Weak.  

Alan proving his football opinions are about as accurate as his political ones.........

[daviebee]

9 hours ago, King Of Paisley said:

Thought Taylor was brilliant. Given who he was up against, didn't shirk it and will have given a young prospect like him a real shot in the arm

O'Donnell was fine as well

Despite the result, I'll sleep better knowing Clarke is the man. He's got into them already not to panic with the ball and try and play it out instead of hoofing it. And we kept our shape as best we could.

With a fully fit squad and Griff to come back, I can't wait for the Russia game now.

That was the most noticeable thing for me, the calmness in and around our own box.  Actually quite impressive.

I'm not too despondent - we were playing the No. 1 ranked team in the world without our only world-class player and having to throw a rookie on in his place.  The first goal was an absolute sickener though.  3 men should've surrounded Hazard when he was on the bye-line giving him nowhere to go.  Second goal was offside and the 3rd was really just icing on the cake for them.  If we'd gone in at 0-0 and kept it tight at the start of the 2nd half...

As for our rookie - I thought Greg Taylor was brilliant considering what he was facing.  So what do we do now with him and Tierney?  He should be in the squad to stay going by that performance.

[thplinth]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

Badly needed.  The support has been stuck in the same 1990's loop for too long.    

Aye because its not like you've been stuck in a loop for decades.

[Burj_Alba]

Away from the performance, which i thought was decent but not great why are Belgium ranked number 1. They def looked like it but surely France as WC winners and Euro runners up should be first.

Doesn't matter really as they are both in a different stratosphere to us.

 

[Squirrelhumper]

49 minutes ago, daviebee said:

 

As for our rookie - I thought Greg Taylor was brilliant considering what he was facing.  So what do we do now with him and Tierney?  He should be in the squad to stay going by that performance.

Was thinking that this morning, be a shame if he drops out the squad.

I think KT will go right back though when fit.

[PapofGlencoe]

my take:

overall:  First 20 mins we were very good.  Were pressing in the right areas and the midfield was in the Belgians faces.   Thought McLean had a great first twenty mins in particular.  After that we dropped 10m deeper and invited pressure all game.  Defence did well given the constant pressure.  Although three nil, kept them out for long spells..two goals in stoppage time.  Was pleasantly surprised with the backline's positioning.  It was comfortable for Belgium but far from embarrassed.

 

marshall:  some decent saves, commanded his box from corners etc.  distribution poor.  6

stephen o'donnell:  solid enough performance, done once by hazard but also put through a few decent long balls wide on counter attack 6

greg Taylor:  Thought he did well considering it's his debut, would not feel nervous about him starting again. solid in the tackle 7

mulgrew: Surprised our central defence was never cut apart.  Thougth the center half pairing was positioned well and given pressure didn't wilt 7

mckenna: threw everything at it all game, kept a decent line, unlucky not to score 6

mclean: had some good interventions and passes.  great first 20mins and then faded a bit 7

mctominay: now see why he's in the team.  comfortable in possession 7

mcgregor:   a positional pawn , little else 5

armstrong: same as above 5

Burke: ran all day, put a shift in when i've been suspicious of his intent in the past.  6

Russell: had to look up his name, as had forgotten it.  ran about but far too deep. 4

Fraser: looked lively and quick to press 6

Edited June 12, 2019 by PapofGlencoe

[PapofGlencoe]

2 hours ago, Arbroath1320 said:

We needed to be more positive and play higher up the park so Hazard could hit us on the counter-attack with lots of space to run into. Great idea.

i think we could have attempted to play ten meters further up the pitch.  we started there from minute one and started well.  I doubt it was by design though.  Belgium are that good.  pushed us back.

[PapofGlencoe]

11 hours ago, aaid said:

Actually the truth is somewhat different.

Some years back Belgium were struggling to qualify in the same way we are but they actually did something about it.   They made a number of changes to youth development, most notably, they played players at the highest age level they could and looked to move players up where possible and crucially once someone went up a level they never went back down, they either stayed at that level, went up to the next level or were dropped entirely.   That's why the likes of Eden Hazard made his full international debut at 17 and has never played for their U21s.

it's both surely.

[andyD]

Well.. first thing for me was the starting line up. Kind of bewildering that both Fraser and Forrest were absent, given that our best hope was going to be catching them on the counter.. yet we left our pacey wide men on the bench. I like Clarke and want him to do well, but this was a very strange decision, no two ways about it. No surprise that our best opportunity came when Fraser, Forrest and Burke all broke at pace (and McKenna!?) and involved all three of them.

Marshall - What you'd expect from him. Horrible distribution and made the saves you'd expect him to make. Did spill a few I think he should have held, but not at fault for any of the goals.
O'Donnell - Looked a bit overly frightened of Hazard for the first hour or so. A bit too far away from him, which mean he got left for dead a couple of times. Overall did ok tho.
Mulgrew - Did well enough. Don't remember anything particularly poor from him. Did ok.
McKenna - Couldn't really handle Lukaku. For me this the difference between playing in the Scottish Prem and the English Prem. In the English Prem you play against these type of players most weeks, where as for McKenna it's a bit of a shock and a culture change to meet someone with the strength and ability of Lukaku. Hopefully a good learning exercise for him.
Taylor - A good debut. Offered forwards a couple of times, but mostly stuck to his defensive task and did reasonably well at it. Didn't look like a young Killie player making his debut at all. Did get the ball thrown at him in a couple of situations he wont have been grateful for tho.
McLean - Difficult one. Did some great things, some great tackles and interceptions. But also lacked awareness, letting Hazard and De Bruyne slip into the gap behind him, instead of dropping onto them. And was busy appealing for the corner when he was the closest man to close down Hazard for the opener. Also seemed overly intent on playing out of trouble every single time, meaning he put a few people in crappy situations (notably Taylor twice) by giving them the ball on the edge of our box under heavy pressure. So, a very mixed bag for me.
McTominay - Worked hard, hassled, kept the ball reasonably well. Not the finished article yet, and can't have any complaints about his booking.
McGregor - Seemed to just be tasked with defending in front of Taylor to start with and did ok at that. But didn't really contribute anything else, even when he moved centrally. Certainly not his best game.
Armstrong - Looked lively until his early exit. Linked up well a couple of times, was a shame to lose him.
Russell - Very anonymous. Seemed lax defensively when he was wide, then disappeared completely when moved into the 2nd striker role. Really don't see what he brings to the starting line up at the moment.
Burke - Did well. Ran a lot, put himself about, won headers. Had very little support from McGregor and Russell, especially when Russell moved centrally, I'm not sure they even linked up once. Good at getting back in shape as well, was the first line of defense.

Fraser - Lively, conscientious, why he didn't start is beyond me.
Forrest - An improvement on Russell on the right, and his pace did make a difference. Not sure why he didn't just try and side foot it in instead of taking a touch, but oh well.

1st goal was poor and preventable. Everyone (most notably McLean) switched off and just gave Hazard all the time he wanted.
2nd goal was offside.
3rd goal was probably just tiredness. McGregor should have tracked De Bruyne. McLean should have got out to him quicker.

Overall, the starting line up felt like we hamstrung ourselves a bit. Our best weapons were on the bench, and we all know it. Didn't really answer any selection questions for me either.
Marshall still doesn't feel like the guy we should be playing as he has very obvious flaws. But I think his handling is better than Bain's and do you throw in Kelly against Russia? Seems risky.
Taylor did well, but is still probably 4th choice in his position. O'Donnell was good enough. McKenna's as good as we have.
McLean was hit and miss, but in extremes. He's similar to McGinn in this respect (tho different midfield role ofc). Some great, some awful. At the moment I'm feeling like I want someone who is just reliable in the middle of the park as the slip-ups tend to lose goals.
It's so obvious who the wide men should be that it's painful to think that Clarke needed this game to work it out. But oh well..
Burke did ok up front. Hard working and probably perfect for this type of fixture, or if we're defending a lead. Worthy member of the squad.

A tough game to have so early in Clarke's reign.. and a very questionable lineup. But we were disciplined, worked hard. There are good things to take from the game, we certainly weren't embarrassed and there was no sign of a collapse. I guess the worry going into Russia is we've seen very little in terms of attacking intent so far.. I wouldn't want to be playing backs to the wall and hoping to counter against the Russians, but I guess if it gets a result that's what matters.