Ryan Fredericks

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, Burj_Alba said:

As we are one grouping ahead of them and at home, we should win, will never say we will win. Point is, this match will give a good summary of whether ODonnell is good enough defensively and going forward against a team of this calibre, win or not win. Unlikely he will be bombing up and down in Belgium if he has Hazard, De Brueyne or others terrorising him so will see different side to him. Good two matches to see what he's got.

I understand why we’re favourites to win the match but thanks for your explanation. I have watched us struggle to win games ‘we should win’ for more than 30 years so the phrase fills me with dread.

O’Donnell has played for Scotland 7 times so I have a fair idea of what he’s got already. Not a hell of a lot is the answer but he’s the best we’ve got available at the moment. 

[Super_Scotlandfan]

4 hours ago, Morrisandmoo said:

I think the difference is that you are assessing strengths and weaknesses based on bias and opinion. 

Whereas the other guy is basing his assessment on relevant facts. 

The facts show that central defenders have been more if a weak point for us. Not right back, regardless of your opinion of how good our right back is or not (relative to the rest of the.team). 

And that rings true in my mind.  The central defenders weve been playing are pretty young (McKenna, Soutter, bates) and liable to make mistakes. They also might not be very good, but time will tell.

Also, we need a striker before a right back. And a keeper I suspect. 

The facts he has used aren't the sole indicators you use to gauge performance though. 

Centre backs, due to the position they play are more likely to be involved in the loss of a goal so clearly can't be compared in this way. Although, I do agree we are weak at centre back too. They've definitely got more potential though. It's more likely the centre backs in and around our squad will step up to the level that's required than Palmer or O'Donnell. 

It looks as if we are needing a striker but we've got Griffiths, McBurnie and hopefully Fletcher to come in. 

[Third Lanark]

9 hours ago, Fairbairn said:

Add Kenny McLean and John Fleck to that list.

Yeah, but they can't all play in the same team. Therefore Hanley could take the starting eleven total up to 7/8.

[Super_Scotlandfan]

4 hours ago, andyD said:

Do you think a manager would weight 'mistakes resulting goals' lower than 'mistakes not resulting in goals'?

Yes, depending on the goal conceded. 

A good example is probably the Israel home game. A manager would be far more concerned about the huge chance we conceded at the end of the game rather than Kayal's wonder strike. 

One goal involved a shot from 25 yards that found the bottom corner. Kayal could have tried this 50 times and scored once. Yes, McGregor could have closed him down slightly earlier but the goal is caused by the quality (lucky) strike.

The other involved allowing a player to run into the box completely unmarked and take a shot from 6 yards out from a ball over the top. 

Looking back at it now, Callum Paterson (playing right back!) probably is the man that should be tracking this player. 

If I was an opposition player I'd watch this game and be looking to expose whoever's job it was to track this player into the box rather than McGregor's apparent inability to close down at the edge of the box. 

 

[andyD]

15 hours ago, Super_Scotlandfan said:

Yes, depending on the goal conceded. 

A good example is probably the Israel home game. A manager would be far more concerned about the huge chance we conceded at the end of the game rather than Kayal's wonder strike. 

One goal involved a shot from 25 yards that found the bottom corner. Kayal could have tried this 50 times and scored once. Yes, McGregor could have closed him down slightly earlier but the goal is caused by the quality (lucky) strike. 

The other involved allowing a player to run into the box completely unmarked and take a shot from 6 yards out from a ball over the top. 

Looking back at it now, Callum Paterson (playing right back!) probably is the man that should be tracking this player. 

If I was an opposition player I'd watch this game and be looking to expose whoever's job it was to track this player into the box rather than McGregor's apparent inability to close down at the edge of the box.

And that's cool. You're looking at one goal and one incident. And i guess manager can do that if he wants.

BUt if you look at a dozen games and none of your goals conceded had anything to do with your right back, would you really be "well thats what we need to sort out ahead of anything else!"

I think you've got the blinkers on.

[scottishedgar]

Surely you judge the player in his performance and not whether the chance he may have given up results in a goal or not. "Andy Robertson is doing just fine because Raheem Sterling missed 4 chances and the goal we conceded wasn't his fault"

[Super_Scotlandfan]

1 hour ago, andyD said:

And that's cool. You're looking at one goal and one incident. And i guess manager can do that if he wants.

BUt if you look at a dozen games and none of your goals conceded had anything to do with your right back, would you really be "well thats what we need to sort out ahead of anything else!"

I think you've got the blinkers on.

It’s an example...you’d need to watch every minute we’ve played over however many games again.

You’d probably find that right backs aren’t generally at fault for conceding many big chances compared to centre backs and goalies, they’re the ones in the firing line. 

Anyway there are so many more aspects to a right back’s game other than being at fault for conceding goals/big chances. You can’t just crudely base your judgement off that. 

It is our main weak point at the moment closely followed by centre backs. 

[andyD]

1 hour ago, scottishedgar said:

Surely you judge the player in his performance and not whether the chance he may have given up results in a goal or not. "Andy Robertson is doing just fine because Raheem Sterling missed 4 chances and the goal we conceded wasn't his fault"

The point is that that is a single performance.

If Robertson (why you picked him i dont know, but ok) went a dozen games with nothing coming of his apparent failings, while several goals were shipped due to our world class right back and even more due to central midfield not doing their defensive work, then would you not use that to draw a picture of what our weaknesses were, rather than 'well Robertson got beat a few times in that game'.

Essentially what i'm labouring at is.. the fact show that we do not concede due to our right backs. That's just a fact.
And I suspect, a lot of folk are down on O'Donnell and Palmer because they don't 'fancy' them, not because of anything they've particularly done wrong in matches.

I'd like us to try and look more objectively at player performance, rather than just arbitrarily say "liverpool, faultless! kilmarnock, achillies heel!"

[andyD]

57 minutes ago, Super_Scotlandfan said:

It is our main weak point at the moment closely followed by centre backs. 

That's not fact based.
That's just like.. your opinion maaan!

I'd almost entirely disagree. For me, the centerbacks are the main issue, closely followed by with the defensive mids (McGregor and McGinn) doing the required work.

[ceudmilefailte]

1 hour ago, Super_Scotlandfan said:

 

It is our main weak point at the moment closely followed by centre backs. 

It is the position we are furthest  away from having an international class player, but as some one said it is the least important position on the park. other positions are a far bigger problem but we seem to focus on right back.

Will be interesting to see if he plays Mctominay on the right side of a midfield three assuming a 4-3-2-1 formation as that would go a long way to help cover our right back problem.

 

[@neaver82]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 2:57 PM, ParisInAKilt said:

He’s 26 and played 15 EPL games, hardly the stuff of legends.

And he’s English.

True. Still better than what we have though except maybe Bardsley.

[ceudmilefailte]

3 minutes ago, @neaver82 said:

True. Still better than what we have though except maybe Bardsley.

Am I the only person that reckons players deteriorate with age?

[@neaver82]

2 hours ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Am I the only person that reckons players deteriorate with age?

Why are you quoting me in that comment?

[ceudmilefailte]

Just now, @neaver82 said:

Why are you quoting me in that comment?

Because you mentioned an aging Bardsley .

[@neaver82]

Just now, ceudmilefailte said:

Because you mentioned an aging Bardsley .

Bardsley is only 33 and played 20 times for a good Barnsley side last season. Who is better in that position?

[andyD]

13 minutes ago, @neaver82 said:

Bardsley is only 33 and played 20 times for a good Barnsley side last season. Who is better in that position?

 
 

[ceudmilefailte]

7 minutes ago, @neaver82 said:

Bardsley is only 33 and played 20 times for a good Barnsley side last season. Who is better in that position?

34 in a couple of weeks and personally I have never really rated him. To be blunt I would prefer some one I don't rate that won't be 35 come the finals than some one I don't rate that will be

[@neaver82]

2 minutes ago, andyD said:

 
 

Burnley

 

[@neaver82]

1 minute ago, ceudmilefailte said:

34 in a couple of weeks and personally I have never really rated him. To be blunt I would prefer some one I don't rate that won't be 35 come the finals than some one I don't rate that will be

Fair comment, but the questions stands. Who do you rate at right back?

[ceudmilefailte]

3 minutes ago, @neaver82 said:

Fair comment, but the questions stands. Who do you rate at right back?

Paterson, Phillips, Teirney are better right backs than any of O'donnel Palmer or Bardsley if that's what you mean.

Or back on topic Fredericks is better too.

I would pick O'donnell or Palmer ahead of Bardsley simple based on age as they are all equally good (let's be polite)

[er yir macaroon]

3 hours ago, @neaver82 said:

True. Still better than what we have though except maybe Bardsley.

Bardsley’s not interested.  

[mccaughey85]

Bardsley has nearly 300 epl appearances but according to some on here he isn't good enough yet Frederick's gets a few epl starts for west ham and suddenly he's a class above anything we have. Bardsley might not want to play for us but he's arguably the best right back we have who is eligible for us. 

[Super_Scotlandfan]

4 hours ago, andyD said:

That's not fact based.
That's just like.. your opinion maaan!

I'd almost entirely disagree. For me, the centerbacks are the main issue, closely followed by with the defensive mids (McGregor and McGinn) doing the required work.

Yeah, my opinion based on watching all our games and taking in the stats that are available. 

Not merely looking at the goals we've conceded to judge (and gain an opinion on) our right back performance level. 

Agree centre backs and defensive midfield are an issue. McTominay coming in could help defensive midfield. McGregor is great at coming deep, picking up the ball and progressing it up the park, it shouldn't be his job to protect the defence. 

[andyD]

11 hours ago, Super_Scotlandfan said:

Yeah, my opinion based on watching all our games and taking in the stats that are available. 

Not merely looking at the goals we've conceded to judge (and gain an opinion on) our right back performance level.  

Agree centre backs and defensive midfield are an issue. McTominay coming in could help defensive midfield. McGregor is great at coming deep, picking up the ball and progressing it up the park, it shouldn't be his job to protect the defence. 

Aye, cos I haven't watched any of our games.. ever! 
Do you read your posts?

Agreed, McTominay should help and hopefully will start every game he's available for.

As for McGregor, he's good at that for Celtic, where he's better than everyone he's playing against. At international level it's a different question tho. He HAS to put in the defensive shift, we can't play a double 6 where one of the 6s can't be bothered with the defensive work and just wants to play the ball.

Looks like McTominay can do both, which is fantastic.
McGregor has been lax defensively so far and needs to improve.
McGinn has looked suspect, and is not a 6 for his club (probably for a reason).
Armstrong's an option, tho I do feel like his talents are better suited to playing further forward.
McDonald seems an obvious choice. He's certainly not as bad as he's seemed in his handful of caps so far.
Shinnie is actually a player I like in the middle of the park. He's got energy and he leads by example.
McCrorie is hopefully one for the future, but might need a move unless Gerrard decides that Scottish players are allowed to play for gers.

So against Cyprus we can probably afford a McTominay / McGregor double 6.
Against Belgium I'd probably go McTominay / Shinnie, as we need players in that position who first and foremost can do the defensive work, while we try and counter with 3-4 guys with pace.

It's all about using the tool you have in the best way for the situation.
And right now we've got a lot of tools in midfield.

[wanderer]

Media reporting that Clarke also chasing Che Adams and Harney Barnes (no direct quotes anywhere, other than just paper talk.... so I would not look to much into this, given Adams has been pretty vocal on a view to a Scotland call up, and Barnes is thought of extremely highly in England's set up already).

Edited June 13, 2019 by wanderer