ONeils4oyarder Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 On 5/7/2019 at 2:12 PM, PASTA Mick said: Because we have amateur teams in our professional leagues with as few as 145 people going to watch them. The league system clearly doesn't work very well - our teams perform poorly in Europe, we have one of the most predictable leagues in Europe and our national team is a joke. Nobody is suggesting we merge teams. I'm certainly not going that. We have one 'amateur' team in our top 42...the rest are professional clubs. If you mean we have 'part-time' clubs in our professional leagues, and want rid of them, then we'll not be left with very many clubs at all. Alloa, in our 2nd flight, are part-time for example. The amount of clubs taking part, has nothing do with the problem in my opinion...the amount of games our teams play each other, the size of our leagues, the daft split etc...aye, i can see how they could be altered in certain ways, but by telling the teams in Divisions 1 & 2, that they are now 'non-league', I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, ONeils4oyarder said: We have one 'amateur' team in our top 42...the rest are professional clubs. If you mean we have 'part-time' clubs in our professional leagues, and want rid of them, then we'll not be left with very many clubs at all. Alloa, in our 2nd flight, are part-time for example. The amount of clubs taking part, has nothing do with the problem in my opinion...the amount of games our teams play each other, the size of our leagues, the daft split etc...aye, i can see how they could be altered in certain ways, but by telling the teams in Divisions 1 & 2, that they are now 'non-league', I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve. Bang on. Falkirk are now 3rd tier, make them non league whilst we're at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils4oyarder Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 On 5/7/2019 at 2:55 PM, aaid said: I'm not talking about teams merging or going out of business, I'm questioning why there are 42 clubs in the nationwide set up. I'd have thought that having regional set up below two top divisions would reduce overheads for travel, clubs would still largely be playing other clubs of the same level and ability but with playing more local teams there would be more interest. If you have a proper pyramid with promotion and relegation all the way through then you allow those clubs with ambition to progress through the leagues and also means those that accept mediocrity can reach their own level as well. There is very little travel required in any of our leagues, other than the outliers of Stranraer, Berwick and a couple of the far-off teuchter teams. Take League One for example...5 out of the 10 teams could be considered as central belt, 4 from Angus, which isn't exactly a million miles away, and then the outlier of Stranraer...if you want to put Stranraer into a local league, they will very quickly go out of business, or certainly drop to a ridiculously low level playing against Threave and Abbey Vale. League Two...6 Central Belt teams, 2 outlying teuchter teams, Annan which is around 90mins from Glasgow and Berwick which is a similar distance from Edinburgh I agree we should have a fully functional pyramid, and I think we are well down the road to eventually having one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils4oyarder Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said: Bang on. Falkirk are now 3rd tier, make them non league whilst we're at it. I've just noticed the two guys calling for this are English-based...just wonder if they actually understand the geography involved at all. As I've said, I've heard this '42 is too many' bullshit before...going back to when Wallace Mercer tried to unite Edinburgh, John Boyle spoke shite about a Lanarkshire super-team (lol) and Ann Budges rantings (which was clearly only about the redistribution of wealth), and none of them made any sense what so ever. If a Club wants to play locally, they can do, they can join a multitude of leagues in whatever region they are located in...if they feel they can operate on a national level, then I see no reason whatsoever to prevent them doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, ONeils4oyarder said: There is very little travel required in any of our leagues, other than the outliers of Stranraer, Berwick and a couple of the far-off teuchter teams. Take League One for example...5 out of the 10 teams could be considered as central belt, 4 from Angus, which isn't exactly a million miles away, and then the outlier of Stranraer...if you want to put Stranraer into a local league, they will very quickly go out of business, or certainly drop to a ridiculously low level playing against Threave and Abbey Vale. League Two...6 Central Belt teams, 2 outlying teuchter teams, Annan which is around 90mins from Glasgow and Berwick which is a similar distance from Edinburgh I agree we should have a fully functional pyramid, and I think we are well down the road to eventually having one. Based on Stranraer's current league position they'd still be in the nationwide leagues under the setup I'm proposing. Only 8 of the existing SPFL teams would go into the North/South leagues. Even if Stranraer were to be relegated then they would be largely playing teams - and others of a similar standard to those they would if they were relegated from League One to League Two under the current system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils4oyarder Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, aaid said: Based on Stranraer's current league position they'd still be in the nationwide leagues under the setup I'm proposing. Only 8 of the existing SPFL teams would go into the North/South leagues. Even if Stranraer were to be relegated then they would be largely playing teams - and others of a similar standard to those they would if they were relegated from League One to League Two under the current system. I still don't see the 'benefit' of sticking 8 of our teams into a regional set-up, when the clubs don't need to or want to... ...there are actually a wheen of clubs that want to move into our national set-up, rather than leave it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 1 hour ago, ONeils4oyarder said: I still don't see the 'benefit' of sticking 8 of our teams into a regional set-up, when the clubs don't need to or want to... ...there are actually a wheen of clubs that want to move into our national set-up, rather than leave it. So on one hand you say you agree with a pyramid structure but on the other hand you want to increase the number of clubs at the national level. Do you really think Scotland can sustain a national set up of say 50 clubs with a structured pyramid below it. I'd love to see ambitious clubs moving up into the national leagues but do that the right way by doing the work on and off the field to build a successful club. In order for the pyramid to work successfully the leagues need to be large enough to support promotion from the feeder leagues. The current system with the Highland and Lowland league effectively is nothing more than a crack in the door to the SPFL. The winners of the Highland and Lowland leagues should automatically be promoted with playoffs for the other two promotion spots, four up four down. Then you would have real interest and competition both for promotion and relegation. I can't see how that would work with a 10 team league. The current league setup only serves to maintain the status quo as much as possible. You had a wee dig at me in an earlier post. I might live in England now but I was born and raised in Scotland so I'm very familiar with the geography and demographics. For the purposes of this thread though, I'm very very familiar with the non-league pyramid set up in England and to a lesser extent Germany and know how they work and what the benefits - and pitfalls - are to clubs.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils4oyarder Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 It was a less of a dig...and more of an observation, the anonymity of fitba discussion boards can lead to assumptions given the lack of real information. I know nothing about you, other than where you reside. I agree with the concept of a pyramid system that allows all clubs to find their level...you talk about the highland and lowland league, being a crack in the door to the SPFL and I'd agree with that, although I expect Cove Rangers to boot the door open shortly. I agree that there should be automatic relegation out of League 2, but the pyramid really is in its infancy and like with everything in Scottish Fitba', change seems to take an age to really happen. It'll come eventually, certainly with the Lowland League Could Scotland sustain 50 clubs at a national level, if we had to go to larger leagues, based on your plan (though I'm not convinced thats the way forward either to be fair)? Well we're currently managing it with 42 and given that the vast majority of interest from Junior and other non-leagues is centred around the central belt, I really don't see why we couldn't. Since you've cited your experience, I'll cite mine...I've been involved in Junior Football for the past 10 years or so. Nothing official, just offering assistance to my local Junior club but enough to have allowed me a keen interest in some of the ambitious, well run clubs out there and obviously the newly developing leagues and league mergers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 56 minutes ago, ONeils4oyarder said: It was a less of a dig...and more of an observation, the anonymity of fitba discussion boards can lead to assumptions given the lack of real information. I know nothing about you, other than where you reside. I agree with the concept of a pyramid system that allows all clubs to find their level...you talk about the highland and lowland league, being a crack in the door to the SPFL and I'd agree with that, although I expect Cove Rangers to boot the door open shortly. I agree that there should be automatic relegation out of League 2, but the pyramid really is in its infancy and like with everything in Scottish Fitba', change seems to take an age to really happen. It'll come eventually, certainly with the Lowland League Could Scotland sustain 50 clubs at a national level, if we had to go to larger leagues, based on your plan (though I'm not convinced thats the way forward either to be fair)? Well we're currently managing it with 42 and given that the vast majority of interest from Junior and other non-leagues is centred around the central belt, I really don't see why we couldn't. Since you've cited your experience, I'll cite mine...I've been involved in Junior Football for the past 10 years or so. Nothing official, just offering assistance to my local Junior club but enough to have allowed me a keen interest in some of the ambitious, well run clubs out there and obviously the newly developing leagues and league mergers. It sounds like we're both on the same page with the only difference how many national leagues there are and what point the pyramid starts. You could have a 50 team setup with 16/16/18 but only if you disbanded the SJFA and folded *all* the Junior clubs into this set up. I know that's controversial but I'd argue that you can't have a properly structured pyramid system with a parallel semi-professional football system in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils4oyarder Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 The SJFA should be disbanded as quickly as possible in my opinion, and all clubs should fall under the banner of the SFA. Its a total an utter nonsense, and is only place out of self-preservation and fear. As a Motherwell fan, I'm not sure how much I like the idea of a bigger league as I think its fair to say we'd almost certainly be guaranteed to finish anywhere from 5th to 10th most seasons, meaning almost every season we'd find ourselves playing umpteen meaningless matches. For what its worth, I could pick holes in your structure all day...but I honestly don't have any real alternative other than the status quo, which also has huge faults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wee-toon-red Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 It would be a laugh to go totally mental and implement an nfl structure with regional divisions for everyone. That way they could set it up for the old firm to be in the same division and play as often as they want, then add in playoffs to decide the winner of the league at the end of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 On 5/7/2019 at 2:12 PM, PASTA Mick said: Because we have amateur teams in our professional leagues with as few as 145 people going to watch them. The league system clearly doesn't work very well - our teams perform poorly in Europe, we have one of the most predictable leagues in Europe and our national team is a joke. Nobody is suggesting we merge teams. I'm certainly not going that. On your second point, SPL clubs have had success in Europe in the past with the same league structure so I cannot see that it can be blamed on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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