exile Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Some of those from the past that society considered heroes or generally well thought of sometimes turn out to have been politically incorrect - racist, misogynist, homophobic, bigoted, you name it... From ancient Romans and Greeks who turn out to have supported slavery, to upstanding ladies and gentlemen of the Empire who turn out to have uncomfortable views, there may be more of them around than we normally give thought to. So, what should we do when we find out? Should we call them out for it? Should we stop citing them at all? Where does it end? It's one thing to take down a statue of Cecil Rhodes, but what about famous people celebrated in (say) Scottish street names, do we rename the streets? Or famous scientists, do we stop referring to their laws and findings as theirs and call them something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, exile said: Some of those from the past that society considered heroes or generally well thought of sometimes turn out to have been politically incorrect - racist, misogynist, homophobic, bigoted, you name it... From ancient Romans and Greeks who turn out to have supported slavery, to upstanding ladies and gentlemen of the Empire who turn out to have uncomfortable views, there may be more of them around than we normally give thought to. So, what should we do when we find out? Should we call them out for it? Should we stop citing them at all? Where does it end? It's one thing to take down a statue of Cecil Rhodes, but what about famous people celebrated in (say) Scottish street names, do we rename the streets? Or famous scientists, do we stop referring to their laws and findings as theirs and call them something else? Just to keep this debate typically highbrow, was watching First Dates the other night and the voice over guy referred to one of the female 'dates' as 'exotic', I think he meant brown, her date was also 'exotic'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Jim Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Who or what was Sandton? A racist filled swamp? Well Glasgow renamed Sandton Square to Nelson Mandela Square, but didn't touch Queen St, George St, Waterloo St, West Regent St, Argyle St, W. Nile St, Dundas St. nor the other great and the good streets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, Grim Jim said: Who or what was Sandton? A racist filled swamp? Well Glasgow renamed Sandton Square to Nelson Mandela Square, but didn't touch Queen St, George St, Waterloo St, West Regent St, Argyle St, W. Nile St, Dundas St. nor the other great and the good streets. Sandton was renamed Nelson Mandela Sq because the South African Embassy (this was when Apartheid was still in existence) was located there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Jim Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 1 minute ago, ErsatzThistle said: Sandton was renamed Nelson Mandela Sq because the South African Embassy (this was when Apartheid was still in existence) was located there. Cheers ET! I do remember the Outspan boycot, though more the blue rinse cringe. I however still cringe just waiting for a bus on Union St now though, so wish somewhere else's name like that was chopped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ormond Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 I’ve been to New Orleans a few times. I love the place. It was weird seeing the General Lee statue done away with the last time I went. It’s a huge focal point in the city and sat high on a column in a roundabout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 I think judging people from different generations on how society thinks and operates now is slightly dangerous, especially when to the more vocal of folk almost anything can be described as offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 (edited) edit: no cant find it. Edited May 3, 2019 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 1 hour ago, exile said: Some of those from the past that society considered heroes or generally well thought of sometimes turn out to have been politically incorrect - racist, misogynist, homophobic, bigoted, you name it... From ancient Romans and Greeks who turn out to have supported slavery, to upstanding ladies and gentlemen of the Empire who turn out to have uncomfortable views, there may be more of them around than we normally give thought to. So, what should we do when we find out? Should we call them out for it? Should we stop citing them at all? Where does it end? It's one thing to take down a statue of Cecil Rhodes, but what about famous people celebrated in (say) Scottish street names, do we rename the streets? Or famous scientists, do we stop referring to their laws and findings as theirs and call them something else? Don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Jim Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 I can present myself as an accidental foil of racism, though the loud one may or may not have thought himself as such. Once upon a time as a youngster I remarked that a young black American, a quiet lad (like me) had a Scottish name - Campbell. Oh dear, his boss, ex. navy (big, white and very loud), took that lead to rip the pish about his ancestry and his mother. All good banter like? Maybe. Wee Campbell kept quiet. I met young Campbell a year or two later and feck me, he had been working out. Jeeez, impressive, but I still feel bad. Was that partly me? I felt awkward at the time, but learning more about how Scottish names were taken takes me back to the incident and I feel even worse. That's why I remember it. I'm sure Glasgow named Jamaica St. proud in the trade and wealth created (Jamaica was worth more to Britain than the lost American colonies), but I'd be afraid to go and ask folk over there what they think about us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, Grim Jim said: I can present myself as an accidental foil of racism, though the loud one may or may not have thought himself as such. Once upon a time as a youngster I remarked that a young black American, a quiet lad (like me) had a Scottish name - Campbell. Oh dear, his boss, ex. navy (big, white and very loud), took that lead to rip the pish about his ancestry and his mother. All good banter like? Maybe. Wee Campbell kept quiet. I met young Campbell a year or two later and feck me, he had been working out. Jeeez, impressive, but I still feel bad. Was that partly me? I felt awkward at the time, but learning more about how Scottish names were taken takes me back to the incident and I feel even worse. That's why I remember it. I'm sure Glasgow named Jamaica St. proud in the trade and wealth created (Jamaica was worth more to Britain than the lost American colonies), but I'd be afraid to go and ask folk over there what they think about us. Ach, don't worry about it, that would probs be the last thing on your mind if you were on hols thousands of miles away. Just nick across the Irish sea if you need an outside opinion of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Grim Jim said: I'm sure Glasgow named Jamaica St. proud in the trade and wealth created (Jamaica was worth more to Britain than the lost American colonies), but I'd be afraid to go and ask folk over there what they think about us. That's not correct. The huge tobacco and cotton industry of North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Virginia was worth much more than anything in Jamaica. And that's not counting the wealth of New England's sea ports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 There were centuries of almost everyone in white western culture being inherently racist (whether they were aware of it or not) that only really started to end in the last 50 years IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 You can't judge the people you can their ideas though. Also the vast majority of them are dead so pulling them up isn't an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 William Beveridge, architect of the modern welfare state, was a big supporter of eugenics & would often address meetings during the Commons debates to explain why his proposals were eugenic in nature. He argued that people on benefits should have their right to have children removed and that middle-class families should be paid a higher rate of Family Allowance (Child Benefit) than poor families to encourage a higher rate of childbirth amongst better-educated classes & discourage uneducated people from breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan cake Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 there's a plaque round the corner from me to a man who thinks slapping women (open hand) is acceptable keeps them in line apparently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 27 minutes ago, Huddersfield said: William Beveridge, architect of the modern welfare state, was a big supporter of eugenics & would often address meetings during the Commons debates to explain why his proposals were eugenic in nature. He argued that people on benefits should have their right to have children removed and that middle-class families should be paid a higher rate of Family Allowance (Child Benefit) than poor families to encourage a higher rate of childbirth amongst better-educated classes & discourage uneducated people from breeding. If he was still around today, views like that would be good enough to get him a job as a government minister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpTheSlope Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 Leigh Griffiths would be an entry for racist heroes of the present from the majority of Scotland fans I’d imagine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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