Chripper Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, vanderark14 said: a good manager can get even average players to perform better or a different approach can get good players to perform better. In an ideal world these players would be self motivated but this isn't an ideal world, its a footballing world where the players will easily down tools and take the huff because they do not like the manager. There's recent examples of a good change in management having a great effect on teams, Northern Ireland are performing better than us with arguably worse players, Killie were garbage and now Steve clark has them playing way above what anyone expected. Those are good examples of average sides punching above their weight due to good management. I'm not denying that a manager can improve performances, of course they can, but that's the point that I'm making... these players aren't playing for the manager, these players are playing for the country, the fans and their own professional pride. If they don't like the manager and they down tools then that says a lot. Top players raise their game if they don't like a manager and they play well in spite of who's in charge. Our players are a bunch of shrinking violets. We can keep changing managers all we like, the root of our problems lay far deeper than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, Chripper said: I'm not denying that a manager can improve performances, of course they can, but that's the point that I'm making... these players aren't playing for the manager, these players are playing for the country, the fans and their own professional pride. If they don't like the manager and they down tools then that says a lot. Top players raise their game if they don't like a manager and they play well in spite of who's in charge. Our players are a bunch of shrinking violets. We can keep changing managers all we like, the root of our problems lay far deeper than that. which is why the performance schools are in place, someone said on here the Under 19s are our first group to come through the new regime. I won't pretend to know much about this, those who follow the younger age groups will confirm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chripper Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, vanderark14 said: which is why the performance schools are in place, someone said on here the Under 19s are our first group to come through the new regime. I won't pretend to know much about this, those who follow the younger age groups will confirm It's all too little, too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyVizion Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Michael O'Neill took a while to get going. Things we do know- McLeish has been decent before, and it's too early to sack him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, DizzyVizion said: Michael O'Neill took a while to get going. Things we do know- McLeish has been decent before, and it's too early to sack him. Not sure if this is a serious post or not ............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weekevie04 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 I'm worried about Sunday due to we'll probably stumble to a 0-2 win, and it'll be "We need to push on from that disaster. We won well here," and all will be rosy again within the SFA. Regarding Michael O'Neill - they have their 'easier' games first e.g Estonia, Belarus and then again in June - so they could be sitting with 12pts in June before they play the Netherlands and Germany x2. The first of the harder double header for them is Germany at home, which they could well win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wee-toon-red Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Chripper said: Top players raise their game if they don't like a manager and they play well in spite of who's in charge. That’s idealistic at best and downright wrong when it comes to modern players. This season alone you’ve only got to look at Man Utd, Chelsea and Real Madrid to see what happens when players don’t like the manager. Is it right? No. Are they arseholes because of it? Probably. But that’s how it is these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chripper Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, wee-toon-red said: That’s idealistic at best and downright wrong when it comes to modern players. This season alone you’ve only got to look at Man Utd, Chelsea and Real Madrid to see what happens when players don’t like the manager. Is it right? No. Are they arseholes because of it? Probably. But that’s how it is these days. Club football you're playing for thousands, maybe millions of fans, international football you're playing for a nation. But yes, It is idealistic but it should be expected than a player would bleed for their country. Our players hardly break into a sweat, never mind blood. Players shouldn't applauded for working hard as it's the minimum of what's expected, it would appear that our players really don't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macy37 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Apparently it’s a young team so that’s the excuse for the result......he’s got the excuses in early ahead of Sunday I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lairdyfaeinverclyde Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 San Marino 50/1 to win tomorrow. Bookies might be confident i'm concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romanticscot Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Saying players should give their all for the country regardless of the coach is naive, you ever worked for a boss that you didn't like and decided I'm going to give my best regardless because I'm doing this for my family, it's a nice thought and hardly it works like that, the Manager and leadership make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chripper Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Lairdyfaeinverclyde said: San Marino 50/1 to win tomorrow. Bookies might be confident i'm concerned. Do you know what that is in decimals? I don't do old school fractions. 50 minutes ago, romanticscot said: Saying players should give their all for the country regardless of the coach is naive, you ever worked for a boss that you didn't like and decided I'm going to give my best regardless because I'm doing this for my family, it's a nice thought and hardly it works like that, the Manager and leadership make a difference. The players don't play the manager. They play for their country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde1998 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 19 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said: If the whistle goes for half time and it's 0-0 or 0-1 to San Marino, I could see things getting ugly and someone running into the dugout to have it out with McLeish. Not that I would condone that kind of behaviour mind. Ireland are 0-0 in Gibraltar at half-time. With our performance on Thursday, this situation doesn't look too far out of the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said: Ireland are 0-0 in Gibraltar at half-time. With our performance on Thursday, this situation doesn't look too far out of the question. 1-0 to Ireland at the moment, although they really toiled in the first half. Gibraltar look a lot better than when we last played them. With that in mind, I'm dreading tomorrow! 8 hours ago, vanderark14 said: a good manager can get even average players to perform better or a different approach can get good players to perform better. In an ideal world these players would be self motivated but this isn't an ideal world, its a footballing world where the players will easily down tools and take the huff because they do not like the manager. There's recent examples of a good change in management having a great effect on teams, Northern Ireland are performing better than us with arguably worse players, Killie were garbage and now Steve clark has them playing way above what anyone expected. Those are good examples of average sides punching above their weight due to good management. People always bring Northern Ireland up and point at the so-so SPFL and English Championship players in their squad but when they qualified for the Euros they did so with a spine of EPL players - Evans, McAuley and Davis - and had a centre-forward who could score goals at international level, Kyle Lafferty. Basically, they had guys playing at a high level of club football who could stop their opponents from scoring and someone at the other end who could get the goals. Northern Ireland's spine is now aging though. They lost all their Nations League fixtures and I can't see them finishing in the top two of their qualifying group this time. The problem with our personnel is that our so-so SPFL and English Championship players play in defence (Andy Robertson excepted) and up front. We haven't had a regular, reliable goalscorer since McFadden. Our better players tend to be midfielders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde1998 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, scotlad said: People always bring Northern Ireland up and point at the so-so SPFL and English Championship players in their squad but when they qualified for the Euros they did so with a spine of EPL players - Evans, McAuley and Davis - and had a centre-forward who could score goals at international level, Kyle Lafferty. Basically, they had guys playing at a high level of club football who could stop their opponents from scoring and someone at the other end who could get the goals. Northern Ireland's spine is now aging though. They lost all their Nations League fixtures and I can't see them finishing in the top two of their qualifying group this time. The problem with our personnel is that our so-so SPFL and English Championship players play in defence (Andy Robertson excepted) and up front. We haven't had a regular, reliable goalscorer since McFadden. Our better players tend to be midfielders. True - Wales are similar to Northern Ireland in that regard: Williams, Allen, Ramsey, Bale. You need at least one decent centre-back, one decent central midfielder and a goalscorer to have some level of success at international level. We're lacking a centre-back and a goalscorer at the moment - the fact that our two best players (arguably) are both left-backs shows our problem, especially when left-back is essentially an auxiliary position. Edited March 23, 2019 by Clyde1998 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said: True - Wales are similar to Northern Ireland in that regard: Williams, Allen, Ramsey, Bale. You need at least one decent centre-back, one decent central midfielder and a goalscorer to have some level of success at international level. We're lacking a centre-back and a goalscorer at the moment - the fact that our two best players (arguably) are both left-backs shows our problem, especially when left-back is essentially an auxiliary position. If our defence and attack were at least as good as our midfield I think we'd all be a lot happier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romanticscot Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Chripper said: Do you know what that is in decimals? I don't do old school fractions. The players don't play the manager. They play for their country. They represent their country, but who decides how they play? the formation? the tactics on and off the ball? The personnel? The country don't do those things. It sounds like I excusing the players from Thursday, I assure I am not, but the Manager and Coaching staff have a huge say and the players work to implement the wishes of the coach. A professional may say I don't agree, but I am going to do my best to implement your direction. Some coaches may decide, I rely on the players to be instinctual and creative, I cant imagine we have players or more appropriately a squad comfortable with that, our average age is really young they need leaders on and off the park, and I believe we are lacking both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lairdyfaeinverclyde Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Chripper said: Do you know what that is in decimals? I don't do old school fractions. 35.2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chripper Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Just now, Lairdyfaeinverclyde said: 35.2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 On 3/22/2019 at 4:26 PM, daviebee said: We've been there 3 times and laboured to 2-0 victories each time. I think the last time we were there we didnae score until aboot 15 minutes to go. That was with far better players as well. Just saying. Yeah, I was at that one... October 2000 Scotland: Sullivan, McNamara, Elliott, Hendry, Dailly, Naysmith, Gallacher, Cameron, Hutchison, McCann, Dodds. Subs: Gould, Weir, Boyd, Holt, Davidson, Dickov, Johnston. Matt Elliot finally broke the 0-0 in the 71st minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chripper Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 20 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: Yeah, I was at that one... October 2000 Scotland: Sullivan, McNamara, Elliott, Hendry, Dailly, Naysmith, Gallacher, Cameron, Hutchison, McCann, Dodds. Subs: Gould, Weir, Boyd, Holt, Davidson, Dickov, Johnston. Matt Elliot finally broke the 0-0 in the 71st minute. I miss the days where we set out the team properly: Sullivan Elliott Hendry Dailly Naysmith McNamara Cameron Gallacher Hutchison McCann Dodds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chripper Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 50 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: Yeah, I was at that one... October 2000 Scotland: Sullivan, McNamara, Elliott, Hendry, Dailly, Naysmith, Gallacher, Cameron, Hutchison, McCann, Dodds. Subs: Gould, Weir, Boyd, Holt, Davidson, Dickov, Johnston. Matt Elliot finally broke the 0-0 in the 71st minute. I miss the days where we set out the team properly. And as for the "You can't play players out position" brigade, about five of the players below were "out of position". And only one of the 11 players played with a back 3 at club level (Elliott). And before anyone says that we didn't qualify for 2002, most of these player were in and around the squad when we qualified for 96 and 98. AND if anyone says that we only beat San Marino 2:0, who here would accept the same score today? 2:0 was my prediction. Sullivan Elliott Hendry Dailly Naysmith McNamara Cameron Gallacher Hutchison McCann Dodds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
er yir macaroon Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 4 hours ago, Scotty CTA said: Yeah, I was at that one... October 2000 Scotland: Sullivan, McNamara, Elliott, Hendry, Dailly, Naysmith, Gallacher, Cameron, Hutchison, McCann, Dodds. Subs: Gould, Weir, Boyd, Holt, Davidson, Dickov, Johnston. Matt Elliot finally broke the 0-0 in the 71st minute. That team is rotten. People who say our current one is the worst ever are way off. It’s a management problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcs Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 21 hours ago, vanderark14 said: which is why the performance schools are in place, someone said on here the Under 19s are our first group to come through the new regime. I won't pretend to know much about this, those who follow the younger age groups will confirm 21 hours ago, Chripper said: It's all too little, too late. Eh ? sorry chipper what do you mean “to little to late” that just doesn’t make sense, these academies were set up to help improve the players of the future how can it be to late if it’s the future , yes we played pure shite on Thursday, but that isn’t down to the training Academies, that is down to the current manager, you can point the finger at the players if you like but they didn’t pick the team that specky wank with the burst blood vessels on his coupon did, the guys is an arrogant arsehole, the sooner he’s away the better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcs Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) In reply to the op, I’m worried now about the overall group as we are now playing catch up, I think we will win today, because I believe that game on Thursday would have hurt the players and I would think they would want to restore some belief in themselves as much as trying to win for Scotland Edited March 24, 2019 by jcs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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