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Ross Greer vs Pierce Morgan


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Good wee debate on the one-sided history of Winston Churchill we get fed in the UK. 

Morgan getting very worked-up on twitter and on TV and making a right fool of himself :lol: 

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I love how the worst thing these thickos can come up with is "we'd be speaking German". Because totalitarianism or murdering people based on their ethnicity, religion and sexuality, isn't bad enough, it's "we'd be speaking German. All the while, completely oblivious to the fact that no country that was on the losing side in WWII now speaks a different language. 

Piers, his co-host and most of the UK need a bit of a history lesson on Churchill. He was a horrible man, with many objectionable beliefs and characteristics. This doesn't mean he wasn't the perfect war-time PM though. 

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morgan was on talkshyte on friday night with a durham in the buildup to the arsenal-man u cup tie. he was a wind up merchant but i found him pretty entertaining. he was talking in jest most of the time and wasn't as aggressive and nasty as he is on twitter.

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12 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

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I read Bill Innes 'St Valery' last year and that gave a different take on those events.  IIRC a sacrifice maybe but Innes suggested a necessary one from a strategic point of view.

Churchill doesn't come out of it very well with the Greeks either: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/30/athens-1944-britains-dirty-secret

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33 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I read Bill Innes 'St Valery' last year and that gave a different take on those events.  IIRC a sacrifice maybe but Innes suggested a necessary one from a strategic point of view.

Churchill doesn't come out of it very well with the Greeks either: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/30/athens-1944-britains-dirty-secret

Or the Indians

Or the Irish

Or the Kenyans

Or the poor bastards that died in the Dardanelles. 

Or the incinerated population of Dresden in February 1945

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6 hours ago, Auchinyell Sox Change said:

What about the luftwaffe pilots in battle of britain ; or u boat crews

at what point does the hand ringing end

I'm not sure its hand wringing.  It is however demonstrating that there's  another side too Churchill, a side that very few people know about and certainly aren't taught about and perhaps don't want to know about. Greer's remarks were unjustified in my book and he came across naive and blinkered himself.  Anyone looking for a genuine assessment of Churchill is unlikely to find it in a debate between Greer and Morgan.

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Aww someone doesn't like his beloved British imperial heroes being (deservedly) criticised. :-))

Douglas Bader and Guy Gibson were two utterly repellent individuals. A pair of snobbish bullies with racist views and who despised the working classes

Edited by ErsatzThistle
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3 hours ago, Auchinyell Sox Change said:

Political allegiances aside , find it hard for anyone to take a kid seriously who flunked university 

the whole revisionist history thing is becoming a bit tiresome

Churchill's peccadilloes are hardly revisionist

They are there for everyone to research - it's just that they are rarely talked about

I call it the Churchill dilemma

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37 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Aww someone doesn't like his beloved British imperial heroes being (deservedly) criticised. :-))

Douglas Bader and Guy Gibson were two utterly repellent individuals. A pair of snobbish bullies with racist views and who despised the working classes

Bader wouldnt last 5 minutes in modern Britain. Good luck with the Universal Credit application for those disabilities. 

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10 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

I'm not sure its hand wringing.  It is however demonstrating that there's  another side too Churchill, a side that very few people know about and certainly aren't taught about and perhaps don't want to know about. Greer's remarks were unjustified in my book and he came across naive and blinkered himself.  Anyone looking for a genuine assessment of Churchill is unlikely to find it in a debate between Greer and Morgan.

The key thing here is that Churchill was both a white supremacist racist *and* was the right man at the right time as wartime PM.  It's possible to be both at the same time you have to accept and reflect on both aspects of someone who was a very complicated individual. I wouldn't have him as personally as the greatest Briton of the 20th century, there are others with a similar level of achievement without anything close to the baggage that Churchill had.

What gets missed about Churchill is that up until the Second World War, his career had been a succession of major fuck ups and of course the UK electorate showed what they thought of him by voting him out of office when the war was won. 

I watched the "debate" and thought Greer probably had the best of it but let himself down badly by sitting smirking and giggling while Morgan was losing it, it betrayed his immaturity.   I've quite a bit of time for Patrick Harvie and although I don't agree with everything he says it's always worth listening to him. Greer though I think is one for the watching.  Someone on here had some very disparaging views on his role at Yes Scotland during the referendum, Scunnered maybe, I can't remember. 

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45 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Aww someone doesn't like his beloved British imperial heroes being (deservedly) criticised. :-))

Douglas Bader and Guy Gibson were two utterly repellent individuals. A pair of snobbish bullies with racist views and who despised the working classes

Let me know when your utopian ideal has been realized Wolfie and ill come back for a visit

am sure Guy Gibsons dog was suitably offended by his moniker

got to get back to carving my Cecil Rhodes effigy....

Of their time ; may be the clue to how a lot of folk behaved in the past

 

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