There is no dark side of the moon

[phart]

Will probbaly be a rock or a lens artefact.

[chaff]

Why not just drive up to it?

[phart]

35 minutes ago, chaff said:

Why not just drive up to it?

It takes ages with those landers, i think one of the mars rovers only travelled 20 km in 9 months. There's a control lag as well, although nowhere near as bad on the moon as Mars.

[thplinth]

13 hours ago, exile said:

China's Yutu 2 rover spots cube-shaped 'mystery hut' on far side of the moon | Space

I love stuff like this. Like the 'lights' on Ceres.

I dare say it will be something ordinary but for now there is still that small chance it is an 'artifact' of some description.

Imagine if they did find something non natural. It would change the world. I can dream...

[phart]

 

[exile]

On 12/6/2021 at 12:28 PM, thplinth said:

I love stuff like this. Like the 'lights' on Ceres.

I dare say it will be something ordinary but for now there is still that small chance it is an 'artifact' of some description.

Imagine if they did find something non natural. It would change the world. I can dream...

Yes it's hard to imagine what the world reation would be if they found an 'artificial' object embedded on the Moon. Can you imagine the wild theories! 😅   Then again, some might not believe the Moon has a hard surface!

[phart]

It would the wildest/greatest thing ever.

Unfortunately it's probably a rock and the "lights" were most likely reflections.

However if we can find independent life somewhere else in the solar system , then we have life independently evoving twice in the same star system and it changes everything. For me it's one of the single greatest questions we could answer near term. Is life n=1 everywhere, or is it n=2 in one star system the difference is huge.

[kumnio]

If we did find another life form on another planet, Id be amazed if the info was released to the public. 

[phart]

2 minutes ago, kumnio said:

If we did find another life form on another planet, Id be amazed if the info was released to the public. 

Depends what shape it took, single cell or multi-cell organism then it'd get published. Aliens come and visit us maybe hish hush.

[kumnio]

Just now, phart said:

Depends what shape it took, single cell or multi-cell organism then it'd get published. Aliens come and visit us maybe hish hush.

Yep agreed, I was thinking of a being of substantial size, intelligence etc.

In the vastness of space, there has to be something else out there, while it won't be a one eyed green monster as Hollywood would portray, there just has to be something.

[thplinth]

Imagine if it was just some mysterious box though. Like the obelisk in 2001. The world would melt down. 😀

I lost interest in the US landers precisely because I concluded that anything remotely interesting would be immediately 'classified'. So what was the point in following them.

But this is the Chinese lander so if they find something.. by random... at almost the first go... then they are clearly saying to NASA... you have been hiding it just like everyone said. 😀

Something will go wrong with the Chinese lander before it get a bead on the 'cube'. Sure as Ghislaine Maxwell meets a sticky end.

I really do find this all mega fascinating. What is that cube?! 😀

[exile]

If you believe that life on Earth arose from random chemical permutations in some kind of primordial soup, and you believe the universe is as large and old as scientists tell us, then the chance that life has evolved elsewhere must be pretty likely. 

Though the universe being as large and old as it is, the chance of us encountering the others must be pretty unlikely.

As I see it, that's the conundrum.  

[phart]

All depends on what the chance it is proteins form cells etc, life has numbers on its side though. Trillions and trillions of possbile chances.

Someone was saying that even if it was 1 in a trillion chance that for every planet on the "goldilock zone" you create life, then it is certain there is life elsewhere.

As you say exile we're constrained by scale though. The sheer distances are mind boggling. That's just intra-galaxy. There's a non-zero chance we're the only life in the galaxy.

Also galaxies are splitting apart and eventually we'll be too far away from anything bar our local group, Andromeda is going to crash into us as well.

[phart]

Another, hopefully slight, delay for James Webb.

"This will delay the launch date to no earlier than Friday, Dec. 24. We will provide more information about the new launch date no later than Friday, Dec. 17."

[Scotty CTA]

On 12/11/2021 at 5:15 PM, exile said:

If you believe that life on Earth arose from random chemical permutations in some kind of primordial soup, and you believe the universe is as large and old as scientists tell us...

...then simple deductive reasoning would be an enormous challenge for you.

On 12/11/2021 at 5:15 PM, exile said:

...then the chance that life has evolved elsewhere must be pretty likely. 

The odds are impossible.

(Lets just round them off to zero.)

On 12/11/2021 at 5:15 PM, exile said:

Though the universe being as large and old as it is...  

Nope, neither 'large' nor 'old'.

On 12/11/2021 at 5:15 PM, exile said:

...the chance of us encountering the others must be pretty unlikely.

As I see it, that's the conundrum.  

There is no real conundrum.

The only thing you've done here is paint yourself into a corner with false theories and assumptions to create that 'conundrum'.

Your starting point is incorrect.

Can you explain (for instance) where the, literally, billions and billions of pieces of information that form your DNA come from?

DNA is a 'language'.

Language can only come from intelligence. 

Therefore, we have been intelligently designed.

"For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."  Romans 1:20

[Scotty CTA]

On 12/11/2021 at 6:03 PM, phart said:

All depends on what the chance it is proteins form cells etc, life has numbers on its side though. Trillions and trillions of possbile chances.

Or none.

On 12/11/2021 at 6:03 PM, phart said:

Someone was saying that even if it was 1 in a trillion chance that for every planet...

There aren't any planets.

On 12/11/2021 at 6:03 PM, phart said:

...on the "goldilock zone" you create life, then it is certain there is life elsewhere.

Or not.

On 12/11/2021 at 6:03 PM, phart said:

As you say exile we're constrained by PERCEIVED scale though. The sheer PERCEIVED distances are mind boggling. That's just intra-galaxy. There's a non-zero chance we're the only life in the galaxy.

And yet... we are!

On 12/11/2021 at 6:03 PM, phart said:

Also galaxies are splitting apart...

Of course they are.

On 12/11/2021 at 6:03 PM, phart said:

...and eventually we'll be too far away from anything bar our local group.

Oh, no.

On 12/11/2021 at 6:03 PM, phart said:

Andromeda is going to crash into us as well.

Yay!

[glasgow jock]

The Universe is so old there could have been countless solar systems & galaxies with highly intelligent life (even way more advanced than ours) that could have been and gone millions of years before the formation of our solar system ??

Have I got that right ??

[phart]

1 hour ago, glasgow jock said:

The Universe is so old there could have been countless solar systems & galaxies with highly intelligent life (even way more advanced than ours) that could have been and gone millions of years before the formation of our solar system ??

Have I got that right ??

Universe is thought to be 13.8 billion years from the big bang. Our Solar system started forming 4 or 5 billion years ago. 3.5 billion years ago prokaryotes formed , then took another 1.5 billion years to get eukaryotes (that's what we're made of), then another billion for it to go multi-celluar, this happened about a billion years ago. Then 600 million years ago got simple animals and took off from there.

So defo been enough time for similiar stuff to have happened earlier. Some Solar system could have formed 10 billion years ago. Got a 5 billion year head start on us. I think the oldest planet we have observed is 12.7 billion years old.

[phart]

 

[Orraloon]

15 minutes ago, phart said:

Universe is thought to be 13.8 billion years from the big bang. Our Solar system started forming 4 or 5 billion years ago. 3.5 billion years ago prokaryotes formed , then took another 1.5 billion years to get eukaryotes (that's what we're made of), then another billion for it to go multi-celluar, this happened about a billion years ago. Then 600 million years ago got simple animals and took off from there.

So defo been enough time for similiar stuff to have happened earlier. Some Solar system could have formed 10 billion years ago. Got a 5 billion year head start on us. I think the oldest planet we have observed is 12.7 billion years old.

https://hubblesite.org/contents/news-releases/2003/news-2003-19.html

[phart]

3 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

https://hubblesite.org/contents/news-releases/2003/news-2003-19.html

Wild story

This planet, a few times more massive than Jupiter has survived the harsh conditions of a globular cluster, a gravitational collision with a binary system, and the death of its progenitor star.

That's the one I was thinking of, I had no idea how up to date I was though.

I was literally just listening to a podcast on exo-plantets on Monday and we're finding them all the time now.

[Freeedom]

2 hours ago, glasgow jock said:

The Universe is so old there could have been countless solar systems & galaxies with highly intelligent life (even way more advanced than ours) that could have been and gone millions of years before the formation of our solar system ??

Have I got that right ??

I would say that it is almost a dead certainty that there is life elsewhere in the Universe, perhaps even within our own solar system.  It is also highly likely that there are civilisations currently existing in other parts of the Universe and that other civilisations have been and gone long before our solar system ever came into existence. The Universe is so astoundingly large and old that the odds of it not being the case that any of this is true seems to be very low. But of course we've never observed life anywhere else so we can't assert anything as being a fact.

[phart]

1 minute ago, Freeedom said:

I would say that it is almost a dead certainty that there is life elsewhere in the Universe, perhaps even within our own solar system.  It is also highly likely that there are civilisations currently existing in other parts of the Universe and that other civilisations have been and gone long before our solar system ever came into existence. The Universe is so astoundingly large and old that the odds of it not being the case that any of this is true seems to be very low. But of course we've never observed life anywhere else so we can't assert anything as being a fact.

Yeah we have n=1 at the moment.

The crazy thing is if we find independent life elsewhere in our solar system, for example Europa (one of Jupiters moons) or signs of extinct life on Mars and we can be sure enough it developed independent of Earth then i'd be so much more confident it happens everywhere pretty much.

At the moment we're in a state where you'd like to think, cause of the numbers, there must be something, however, as you say we can't say for certain.

The crazy thing about the age of the universe is it's relatively young when you compare its start and its likely end (as far as we understand it)

[Freeedom]

20 minutes ago, phart said:

Yeah we have n=1 at the moment.

The crazy thing is if we find independent life elsewhere in our solar system, for example Europa (one of Jupiters moons) or signs of extinct life on Mars and we can be sure enough it developed independent of Earth then i'd be so much more confident it happens everywhere pretty much.

At the moment we're in a state where you'd like to think, cause of the numbers, there must be something, however, as you say we can't say for certain.

The crazy thing about the age of the universe is it's relatively young when you compare its start and its likely end (as far as we understand it)

Yeah, the odds of winning the lottery for any one individual on any given weekend are astronomically low, just as the odds are incredibly low (we think) that any one planet may harbor the conditions for life to develop.

But if you were to play the lottery hundreds of billions of times over the course of billions of years, you're probably going to win the jackpot several thousand times. That's how I like to think about it. It's just unfortunate that we probably won't have the capacity to know anything for sure in my lifetime

[exile]

16 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

...then simple deductive reasoning would be an enormous challenge for you.

The odds are impossible.

(Lets just round them off to zero.)

Nope, neither 'large' nor 'old'.

There is no real conundrum.

The only thing you've done here is paint yourself into a corner with false theories and assumptions to create that 'conundrum'.

Your starting point is incorrect.

Can you explain (for instance) where the, literally, billions and billions of pieces of information that form your DNA come from?

DNA is a 'language'.

Language can only come from intelligence. 

Therefore, we have been intelligently designed.

"For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."  Romans 1:20

Science doesn't paint itself into a corner, it always leaves room for doubt and another way out.

The 'pieces of information' are just chemical compounds (DNA is an acid).

Calling an acid a 'language' is a metaphor. Perhaps Nature is, similarly metaphorically, the 'intelligent designer'. 

But even if the world was created by an intelligent designer, that doesn't mean evolution didn't happen, or that the Earth is 'flat'.

Have you come up with an answer yet to my question about the ship travelling east at 60 degrees south?