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Malcolm

First 11

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1 hour ago, andyD said:

Paterson's a center forward these days as Warnock has repeatedly said he's not good enough at defending to play in the premier league, but has the energy, tenacity and ability to play on his own up front in that league. I think he played 2 games at right back last year, but hasn't really played there since 2016. At what point does he become 'not a right back'?

To me it feels dangerous to carry on playing him there. He doesn't train for that position anymore. He doesn't do really any defending at all on matchdays for his club, bar the odd bit of closing down. So he's just going to get worse and worse at it over time.

Not to mention what it'll do to the mentality of other players who are not being picked because there's a center forward we'd rather play in their position. I suspect part of the problems Strachan had with Bardsley were down to picking Hutton ahead of him, even tho he wasn't playing for his club.

We need to be finding an alternative and the sooner the better.

O'Donnell's done fine imo, hasn't been glaringly exposed against difficult opposition; belgium, portugal, mexico, peru. To me he feels like a steady enough option.
Liam Palmer seems to be back in favour at Sheffield Wednesday, tho they currently have a caretaker manager. Still, 4 games unbeaten against decent opposition. He's not great, but he's not terrible.
Ralston's started to see some game time again lately. Fingers crossed that continues.
Donald Love doesn't even make the bench in League One, which is sad.
Dan Meredith still looking promising at West Brom, tho seems to be overlooked at international youth level recently.
Liam Smith is the current u21 incumbent. Dropped down to Ayr, but looking like he might pick up a 2nd consecutive Championship winners medal.

So there are options. Personally, i'd like to see Paterson, O'Donnell and one other in the next squad.

If Bates and McKenna become the first choice pairing in a back four, I’d think Souttar and McRorie could be considered for right back. I feel a tall defensively-minded player is best if Forrest is playing on the right further up the park. That said, I’d stick with O’Donnell as first choice for the moment.

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27 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

If Bates and McKenna become the first choice pairing in a back four, I’d think Souttar and McRorie could be considered for right back. I feel a tall defensively-minded player is best if Forrest is playing on the right further up the park. That said, I’d stick with O’Donnell as first choice for the moment.

Was looking at the Bundesliga 2 ratings on who scored .com Bates is the 101st rated player pretty poor in a poor league.

Despite playing in the debacle that ended 2-1 in Israel Mulgrew is our highest rated defender in the nations league yet we seem to have almost retired him from international football. 

Amazing what stats say and also how bored I can get on a bank holiday.

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34 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Was looking at the Bundesliga 2 ratings on who scored .com Bates is the 101st rated player pretty poor in a poor league.

Despite playing in the debacle that ended 2-1 in Israel Mulgrew is our highest rated defender in the nations league yet we seem to have almost retired him from international football. 

Amazing what stats say and also how bored I can get on a bank holiday.

What is this player ratings nonsense folk are going on about.

Mulgrew and Hanley are responsible for so many defensive calamities over the years & Mulgrew is about 33 now.

Happy to forget about them both and put faith in our 5 or 6 young cb’s we have cultivated. 

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30 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

What is this player ratings nonsense folk are going on about.

Mulgrew and Hanley are responsible for so many defensive calamities over the years & Mulgrew is about 33 now.

Happy to forget about them both and put faith in our 5 or 6 young cb’s we have cultivated. 

It's ratings based on a variety of statistics, Goals, key passes, successful passes, headers won, blocks made successful dribbles, tackles and  the opposite as well with points deducted for bad passes, unsuccessful dribbles getting tackled or losing possession. Unless you have some way and time of seeing all matches it is a highly regarded as an accurate method of measuring players ability. Big problem for us it that it doesn't see the SPL as worthy of coverage.The Europa and Nations league have been covered and the ratings are interesting but not surprising. Robertson has not been one of our better players in the Nations League and a many would agree. Forrest has not been at his best in the Europa cup which many would agree.

The best players nearly always continue to be highly rated over the season, if you watch a game with no bias and pre perceived  views you will probably find your self agreeing with the players final rating for the match.

They get rid of personal bias but do however miss out on some key factors. They seem to be biased to wards certain positions but then does having the best left back in the league compare with the importance of having the best central defender?

 

 

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2 hours ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Was looking at the Bundesliga 2 ratings on who scored .com Bates is the 101st rated player pretty poor in a poor league

whoscored tends to favour attacking players. look at any side and the defenders tend to be much lower rated than the forward players, that's the broad pattern anyway. I only had a quick flick thru, but it looked like a huge majority of the 100 players ahead of bates were not centerbacks.

then you also have to figure that there is a penalization for defensive players playing at clubs which are doing well. e.g. look at the goalkeepers from the most successful sides in the league. their ratings are all poor. the best rated keeper is from mid-table bochum, but presumably that's because he's quite busy and so has more opportunity to make a difference.

Hamburg are top of the league. 2nd lowest goals conceded in the league. 12 clean sheets. Bates plays 90 minutes for them week in, week out.

Sure stats can be found to 'prove' anything, but i think those are the ones that actually matter. Still, it is the 2nd tier. Fingers crossed Hamburg go up and Bates retains his place and plays against a whole new quality of opposition next season. At that point he'd be playing at a better level than any other centerback we have. So fair play to him for taking on the challenge!

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1 minute ago, andyD said:

whoscored tends to favour attacking players. look at any side and the defenders tend to be much lower rated than the forward players, that's the broad pattern anyway. I only had a quick flick thru, but it looked like a huge majority of the 100 players ahead of bates were not centerbacks.

then you also have to figure that there is a penalization for defensive players playing at clubs which are doing well. e.g. look at the goalkeepers from the most successful sides in the league. their ratings are all poor. the best rated keeper is from mid-table bochum, but presumably that's because he's quite busy and so has more opportunity to make a difference.

Hamburg are top of the league. 2nd lowest goals conceded in the league. 12 clean sheets. Bates plays 90 minutes for them week in, week out.

Sure stats can be found to 'prove' anything, but i think those are the ones that actually matter. Still, it is the 2nd tier. Fingers crossed Hamburg go up and Bates retains his place and plays against a whole new quality of opposition next season. At that point he'd be playing at a better level than any other centerback we have. So fair play to him for taking on the challenge!

Hate to be a spoils sport but the EPL ratings have Van Dijk, Harry Maguire, and David Luiz in the top 20. 4 top teams

Goalkeepers ratings are all poor not, sure why. Might have missed on but Hugo Lloris appears to the best at 49

Hope you didn't see that as me taking a pop at Bates but looking at the four players above you can see why have faith in the ratings.

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6 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Hate to be a spoils sport but the EPL ratings have Van Dijk, Harry Maguire, and David Luiz in the top 20. 4 top teams

Goalkeepers ratings are all poor not, sure why. Might have missed on but Hugo Lloris appears to the best at 49

Hope you didn't see that as me taking a pop at Bates but looking at the four players above you can see why have faith in the ratings.

I was talking trends, so ofc there are expections. Look at most squads and the centerbacks are rarely in the top 6 higest rated of the first 11. Liverpool's an exception with van Dijk (tho Joe Gomez has a similar rating to Bates). I think part of that is the gegenpress. it results in a lot of balls forward to escape the press and van Dijk is imposing and mobile, so wins a lot of those. So the team plays in such a way as to let van Dijk do what he's best at and so he gets higher stats.

Maguire has got a significant boost due to bagging 2 goals, and Luiz has a goal and an assist. I wonder who the highest rated defender is with no goals or assists. i.e. who has to just rely on their defending stats.

It's Alderweireld, rated 6.98. and Bates was 6.86. Looks a bit less bad like that, doesn't it?

Bates isn't far off being the Alderweireld of his league. Like i said.. you can prove anything with stats. ;)

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Just now, andyD said:
Just now, andyD said:

 

It's Alderweireld, rated 6.98. and Bates was 6.86. Looks a bit less bad like that, doesn't it?

Bates isn't far off being the Alderweireld of his league. Like i said.. you can prove anything with stats. ;)

 

Ratings are league dependent, A championship rating for a player in a promoted side will drop severely, it's the reason why promoted sides often offload some of the major players that got them promoted( Barry Douglas being an example) 

 I would say there is a about 0.4 rating difference between those two leagues of course some might be good enough to retain their ratings. Germany is the only other country were the top two leagues are covered and the second tier has been covered for just this year

It is also the same in the nations league. Forrest got a 10 rating against Israel(probably the only one in the nations league) but it hardly makes him one of Europe's best player, just that he was near perfect against a team of the same sort of level. All that our 7+ ratings in the nations league proved was that we were far superior to Albania and Israel.

Celtics ratings in the Europa league are a bit more of  a worry with only Tierney above 7 but how many Celtic fans would rate any of their other Scotsmen in his class.

 

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Dear admin.

Any threads that include the terms/phrases/words; "first 11", "team for" "starting 11" and "squad for".

Please edit anytime the following names are noted...."Grant" and "Hanley"

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13 hours ago, jamboman said:

Please edit anytime the following names are noted...."Grant" and "Hanley"

Don't forget "Barry" and "Bannan". He's still got quite a few fan boys on here who want one of Stuart Armstrong, Ryan Christie or Callum McGregor dropped to make way for him.

Grant Hanley's Scotland career is surely over now ? Scott McKenna, John Souttar, David Bates, Michael Devlin, Ryan Porteous & Craig Halkett are surely all ahead of him.

Edited by ErsatzThistle

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Hanley ? Don't be too sure. Club captain at Norwich and valued highly - recently signed a 5 year deal. Norwich second and obviously a good chance of EPL next season. Hanley out injured last few months but back on the bench recently, with his team shipping goals for fun. Think he will return today in the FA cup game v Portsmouth.

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3 hours ago, killiefaetheferry said:

Hanley ? Don't be too sure. Club captain at Norwich and valued highly - recently signed a 5 year deal. Norwich second and obviously a good chance of EPL next season. Hanley out injured last few months but back on the bench recently, with his team shipping goals for fun. Think he will return today in the FA cup game v Portsmouth.

He was ok, passable when playing week in week out at Blackburn

It was when he was bit part at best at Newcastle that wheels fell off, he doesn't seem to do rusty very well

But if playing every week at Norwich would consider him

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Bannan continues to play really well in the championship. Best player at Wednesday by a distance and probably among the top 5 passers in the league. His contract's up at the end of the season, so will be interesting to see what happens to him at that point.

He's not worthy of a starting spot, but he's probably in a back up pool with Cairney, McGinn and Fleck.

I think some forget how little depth we really have and hold prejudices against players from years gone by, rather than watching them play in the here and now.

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