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Malcolm

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51 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Been saying it for years, our over reliance on experience is holding us back big style Berra is not as good as mulgrew and hasn't been involved with the new younger players.so why bring him back, I would sooner give the experience of being away for a week to some one who will need it in the future.  Naismith and fletcher were in the squad to play, not just for the sake of it.

 

He hasn’t been involved with Souttar? 🤔

Personally I wouldn’t have Berra back in the squad either if everyone else is fit but don’t be surprised to see him called up if we have some injury issues in central defence. 

Naismith was a list minute replacement for McBurnie so he probably wasn’t going to start until McLeish saw him in training. 

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4 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

How many times have they been on international duty together? Souttar and Berra?

None but they have played together plenty of times at Hearts. A good club partnership can transfer well to international football. Surely you can see that?

If we have injury call offs in central defence next year then I wouldn’t be surprised if McLeish called up Berra to partner Souttar. That’s all I’m saying. I hope to god it doesn’t happen but it’s possible and I would probably rather that than throwing Ryan Porteous or someone in against France or Spain etc.

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                                         McGregor

                          Bates.     Souttar.     McKenna.  

     Phillips                                                                        Tierney

                               McGregor        Robertson

                             Forrest.                     Fraser

                                             Fletcher.

OR

                                          McGregor

                            Bates.     Souttar.     McKenna.  

     Phillips                                                                        Tierney

                           Fraser.  Robertson. McGregor.   

                                    Forrest.   Fletcher.

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On 11/23/2018 at 2:39 PM, Texas Pete said:

 

Apart from playing Fraser and Forrest on the wrong positions, I’d have to agree.  😂

Should Souttar walk straight back into the starting 11 though? Bates didn’t do anything wrong and could be playing in the Bundesliga next season. His inexperience does worry me a bit though. It’s a tough one.

Cairney is also a possibility (assuming he ever gets fit and actually wants to play for us).

 

True I don’t think anyone should walk straight back who weren’t involved in the last 2 games. Cairney could be useful for us but not sure if he’s fully committed. 

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On 11/25/2018 at 10:27 AM, bigfingers said:

True I don’t think anyone should walk straight back who weren’t involved in the last 2 games. Cairney could be useful for us but not sure if he’s fully committed. 

A lot can change in 3 months.

It is likely that at least 1 of the 11 that started the last 2 matches won't be available next time we play.

Players that missed out through injury this time should come back in if their form merits it.

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I can't play Tierney at right back unless we're utterly desperate. It kills the entire flank as he can't go forwards on that side. Certainly against the three smaller sides I'd go with O'Donnell.

Other than that, same team as for the last two, tho it would be nice to have Mulgrew and Souttar available, in case of form.

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On 12/4/2018 at 12:39 PM, andyD said:

I can't play Tierney at right back unless we're utterly desperate. It kills the entire flank as he can't go forwards on that side. Certainly against the three smaller sides I'd go with O'Donnell.

Other than that, same team as for the last two, tho it would be nice to have Mulgrew and Souttar available, in case of form.

It’s not too bad with Tierney at right back as Forrest is right footed and gives an option on the outside. 

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On 12/4/2018 at 12:39 PM, andyD said:

I can't play Tierney at right back unless we're utterly desperate. It kills the entire flank as he can't go forwards on that side. Certainly against the three smaller sides I'd go with O'Donnell.

 

Not sure a 26 year old with 50 top flight games is the way ahead.

Prefer to give Tierney a chance to gain experience at right back against the smaller teams

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On 12/6/2018 at 5:40 PM, er yir macaroon said:

It’s not too bad with Tierney at right back as Forrest is right footed and gives an option on the outside. 

Forrest can overlap, but Tierney can't. That's where the problem comes. If the fullback can overlap and cross, then Forrest can cut in and look to get on the end of a delivery, where as with only Forrest being able to overlap we become predictable and easier to stop. In the games where Tierney played right back, our right flank didn't really exist as an attacking force. O'Donnell's not SO bad defensively that it's worth sacrificing the attacking ability of 2 players.

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1 hour ago, andyD said:

Forrest can overlap, but Tierney can't. That's where the problem comes. If the fullback can overlap and cross, then Forrest can cut in and look to get on the end of a delivery, where as with only Forrest being able to overlap we become predictable and easier to stop. In the games where Tierney played right back, our right flank didn't really exist as an attacking force. O'Donnell's not SO bad defensively that it's worth sacrificing the attacking ability of 2 players.

The point i’m making is that with a left footer there is no need to overlap . It’s an inverted full back rather than the commonly employed inverted winger. Not ideal be any means, especially defendly but an in swinging cross is at least a lot easier. 

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7 hours ago, andyD said:

Forrest can overlap, but Tierney can't. That's where the problem comes. If the fullback can overlap and cross, then Forrest can cut in and look to get on the end of a delivery, where as with only Forrest being able to overlap we become predictable and easier to stop. In the games where Tierney played right back, our right flank didn't really exist as an attacking force. O'Donnell's not SO bad defensively that it's worth sacrificing the attacking ability of 2 players.

Patterson is  a better right back than O'Donnell and contributes far more in defensive  and attacking at set pieces. He is also 2 years younger and has nearly four times as many appearances at a reasonably high level. He has more international experience to boot. I don't understand why this is up for discussion.

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Think I will continue my total back track on what I have said for three years about Patterson not being a right back by pointing out that Forrest has had his two best games by the proverbial mile with Patterson in behind him.

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On 12/14/2018 at 6:38 PM, ceudmilefailte said:

Patterson is  a better right back than O'Donnell and contributes far more in defensive  and attacking at set pieces. He is also 2 years younger and has nearly four times as many appearances at a reasonably high level. He has more international experience to boot. I don't understand why this is up for discussion.

Genuine question but were you upset when we brought a young Manchester Utd player called Darren Flecther into the first team and kept him there after only a handful of appearances for his club ?

The amount of poxy "appearances at a high level" never tell the whole story. There's so much more to it than that. Players should never have to hit a "magic number" of appearances before playing international football. What an utterly bizarre way to select players.

Btw it's Paterson not Patterson.

Edited by ErsatzThistle

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4 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Genuine question but were you upset when we brought a young Manchester Utd player called Darren Flecther into the first team and kept him there after only a handful of appearances for his club ?

The amount of poxy "appearances at a high level" never tell the whole story. There's so much more to it than that. Players should never have to hit a "magic number" of appearances before playing international football. What an utterly bizarre way to select players.

Btw it's Paterson not Patterson.

Never have any problem with bringing in youth like Fletcher or Mctominay Tierney etc with next to no club experience. But surely if you haven't "made it" at club level by the age of 26 you will hardly become an international class player. He's found himself on the scene rather because we don't have a right back than he is a good one.

I think we have players that would run riot in the SPL at right back playing in other positions currently.

Before I get taken to court for suggesting playing some one out of position despite my comments elsewhere this is not the same as taking a quality player out of their usual position more a case of taking a better football player to cover one of our weakness's 

You are of course correct about the spelling but it's Callum that spells it wrong, credit to the lad though he has got two l's in Callum

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7 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Never have any problem with bringing in youth like Fletcher or Mctominay Tierney etc with next to no club experience. But surely if you haven't "made it" at club level by the age of 26 you will hardly become an international class player. He's found himself on the scene rather because we don't have a right back than he is a good one.

See this is the bit that intrigues me.

Could you (or anyone else who is interested) have a go at defining in one sentence what it means to have "made it at club level" ? Because I can't. It's too broad a term.

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17 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

See this is the bit that intrigues me.

Could you (or anyone else who is interested) have a go at defining in one sentence what it means to have "made it at club level" ? Because I can't. It's too broad a term.

To be seen as good enough to have played enough club football in an age related manner.

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Paterson's a center forward these days as Warnock has repeatedly said he's not good enough at defending to play in the premier league, but has the energy, tenacity and ability to play on his own up front in that league. I think he played 2 games at right back last year, but hasn't really played there since 2016. At what point does he become 'not a right back'?

To me it feels dangerous to carry on playing him there. He doesn't train for that position anymore. He doesn't do really any defending at all on matchdays for his club, bar the odd bit of closing down. So he's just going to get worse and worse at it over time.

Not to mention what it'll do to the mentality of other players who are not being picked because there's a center forward we'd rather play in their position. I suspect part of the problems Strachan had with Bardsley were down to picking Hutton ahead of him, even tho he wasn't playing for his club.

We need to be finding an alternative and the sooner the better.

O'Donnell's done fine imo, hasn't been glaringly exposed against difficult opposition; belgium, portugal, mexico, peru. To me he feels like a steady enough option.
Liam Palmer seems to be back in favour at Sheffield Wednesday, tho they currently have a caretaker manager. Still, 4 games unbeaten against decent opposition. He's not great, but he's not terrible.
Ralston's started to see some game time again lately. Fingers crossed that continues.
Donald Love doesn't even make the bench in League One, which is sad.
Dan Meredith still looking promising at West Brom, tho seems to be overlooked at international youth level recently.
Liam Smith is the current u21 incumbent. Dropped down to Ayr, but looking like he might pick up a 2nd consecutive Championship winners medal.

So there are options. Personally, i'd like to see Paterson, O'Donnell and one other in the next squad.

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36 minutes ago, andyD said:

Paterson's a center forward these days as Warnock has repeatedly said he's not good enough at defending to play in the premier league, but has the energy, tenacity and ability to play on his own up front in that league. I think he played 2 games at right back last year, but hasn't really played there since 2016. At what point does he become 'not a right back'?

To me it feels dangerous to carry on playing him there. He doesn't train for that position anymore. He doesn't do really any defending at all on matchdays for his club, bar the odd bit of closing down. So he's just going to get worse and worse at it over time.

Not to mention what it'll do to the mentality of other players who are not being picked because there's a center forward we'd rather play in their position. I suspect part of the problems Strachan had with Bardsley were down to picking Hutton ahead of him, even tho he wasn't playing for his club.

We need to be finding an alternative and the sooner the better.

O'Donnell's done fine imo, hasn't been glaringly exposed against difficult opposition; belgium, portugal, mexico, peru. To me he feels like a steady enough option.
Liam Palmer seems to be back in favour at Sheffield Wednesday, tho they currently have a caretaker manager. Still, 4 games unbeaten against decent opposition. He's not great, but he's not terrible.
Ralston's started to see some game time again lately. Fingers crossed that continues.
Donald Love doesn't even make the bench in League One, which is sad.
Dan Meredith still looking promising at West Brom, tho seems to be overlooked at international youth level recently.
Liam Smith is the current u21 incumbent. Dropped down to Ayr, but looking like he might pick up a 2nd consecutive Championship winners medal.

So there are options. Personally, i'd like to see Paterson, O'Donnell and one other in the next squad.

For me he became "not a right back" two games after he went down south when Warnock accused Hearts of selling him a "dud right back" and then started playing him at right mid and attacking mid were he looked one of the best players in the championship. He's now a center forward in the EPL and doing ok.

Not sure about any one else but I did'd think he was any were near a good enough rounded player to be that versatile.

However I now think what he lacks as a more traditional right back is made up for in his contribution in defensive and attacking set pieces.

Also think he did very well in our last two internationals. He will no doubt be found out against Russia and Belgium but the alternatives have next to no experience against decent opposition between them and it's probably better for Paterson to take the rap.

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6 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

the alternatives have next to no experience against decent opposition between them

It's a tough one.

I can see why we should stick with Paterson at right back, as he's done ok and used to play there regularly. It's not clear that anyone will outperform him right now.

But.. he's going to get worse over time, guaranteed.

So are we better off biting the bullet, putting some faith in someone and giving them the experience they need to get better now, or just wait until Paterson becomes so poor at right back that we're forced to change it and hope that in the meantime someone magically steps up and becomes a quality right back.

I think i'd prefer to be in control of the situation and be blooding a right back or two now, so we've got experienced cover. Worst case scenario is Paterson gets an injury and then we've got O'Donnell in and no one with any experience as back up for him.

To me your third choice in every position shouldn't be a guy with no caps.

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3 minutes ago, andyD said:

 

To me your third choice in every position shouldn't be a guy with no caps.

It is however the only way they will ever have the  oppurtunity to get any caps or the experience of the difference between the international and club set ups. Problem really starts when you first or second choices aren't available

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13 minutes ago, andyD said:

 

To me your third choice in every position shouldn't be a guy with no caps.

Forgot to say your squad might include players that might not be, say a right back but play as a stop gap for that position. You could argue that Matt Phillips is cover for right back, right mid and center forward. Probably not the best player to suggest as half the board hate him, but as right back cover he is as good as any one. Strongly believe that having half a dozen young players is the way ahead even if we don't play them they are learning what international football is about

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