Scotland vs Israel - Match Thread [20/11/2018]

[Caledonian Craig]

4 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

Whilst I agree...cheer up you grumpy bugger. We have done what we needed to. We are in pot 3 for the draw and have a play-off to fall back on. 

I've seen shite teams like Albania, Latvia and Northern Ireland at major finals and I want us to be there again. 

Spot on PASTA Mick. 

I get the feeling that the Nations League would have meant a lot more to Mox had we drawn or lost. Golden chance missed, cannae even get past Albania (who beat Wales last night) blah blah blah.

[Guest faircity]

21 minutes ago, macy37 said:

Would you not?

No I wouldn't. There are loads of ways to look at it, simplified though, go through each European nation and see how many of each nations champion would beat their respective national team. Not that many. 

[Scotty CTA]

36 minutes ago, JECK said:

Great night and result obviously.  Just one thing i wanted to mention was Mckenna at the second israel goal. He's turned away and not faced up the shot - if he does that he blocks the shot.  This comparison is going to sound ridiculous i know but bear with: At my weekly 7s over time ive managed to face up shots and take the hit basically, watching the ball and not turn away, it actually does not hurt a great deal 8/9 times out of 10.  So what am basically saying is if i can do it, he bloody certainly can! Saying that i think he's smashing defender and could be top class very soon.

You can watch it at 6:48.

McKenna is marking the runner (#8) and has to leave him to now try and block Zahavi's shot.

He only turns to look back after the ball is past him.

 

[ParisInAKilt]

Something to build on, 4 at the back allows us to get the best from that midfield, even if we’re a bit lightweight when defending, but something that can be worked on. 

[Mox]

29 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Spot on PASTA Mick. 

I get the feeling that the Nations League would have meant a lot more to Mox had we drawn or lost. Golden chance missed, cannae even get past Albania (who beat Wales last night) blah blah blah.

Not at all, there are some positives, particularly the fact that's the core of the team is young and we've dispensed of a big number of players who have let us down time and again, I've been crying out for that for years.

However, the progress is negligible, I'm not getting carried away with beating Albania and Israel, my judgement is reserved for the qualifying campaign.

[Caledonian Craig]

Just now, Mox said:

Not at all, there are some positives, particularly the fact that's the core of the team is young and we've dispensed of a big number of players who have let us down time and again, I've been crying out for that for years.

However, the progress is negligible, I'm not getting carried away with beating Albania and Israel, my judgement is reserved for the qualifying campaign.

Fair enough. 

Remember though the pressure was on BIG TIME for the team/squad especially after the result in Israel. The knives were out for the manager, fans were frothing at the mouth, we had countless call-offs and in our last two matches (with line-ups that were very inexperienced at international level) we won back-to-back matches one of which was our biggest win away from home in a long time and won two must win matches scoring seven goals and conceding two. I'd say there is a lot to be taken from that and confidence will have taken a great boost around the squad. I wonder how many call-offs we'll get for our next squad? A lot less I would guess.

[Baz]

44 minutes ago, 1ANDYP said:

Has to be Tierney at right back. Not sure who I would drop for mcginn

Nobody.

McGinn has been a waste of a jersey so far for us.

[ParisInAKilt]

4 minutes ago, Mox said:

However, the progress is negligible, I'm not getting carried away with beating Albania and Israel, my judgement is reserved for the qualifying campaign.

Agreed. It’s only last month we put in one of our most depressing performances in recent years, not an easy task considering the competition. 

But aye hopefully we can build on this, maintain a core of players for the next campaign and continue to win games home and away against similar or worse teams

[1ANDYP]

Don't think we can play such an attacking line up against stronger teams

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, Baz said:

Nobody.

McGinn has been a waste of a jersey so far for us.

I'd agree. For the time being those in possession of the shirt should keep it. 

[Caledonian Craig]

6 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Agreed. It’s only last month we put in one of our most depressing performances in recent years, not an easy task considering the competition. 

But aye hopefully we can build on this, maintain a core of players for the next campaign and continue to win games home and away against similar or worse teams

I don't think anybody is claiming we are world beaters or anything. It is all about little steps forward and remember how many flops we have had when the chips were down or calamitous results against nations deemed worse than us that has cost us qualification. Well last Saturday and last night put that ghost to bed with one mighty impressive win and one good win. People may say it was only Albania but they beat No 2 seeds Wales last night.

[bigfingers]

The best thing about last night is we can say bye bye to a few players....Ritchie, Snodgrass, Cairney and Kev Macdonald to name a few.

[ParisInAKilt]

1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I don't think anybody is claiming we are world beaters or anything. It is all about little steps forward and remember how many flops we have had when the chips were down or calamitous results against nations deemed worse than us that has cost us qualification. Well last Saturday and last night put that ghost to bed with one mighty impressive win and one good win. People may say it was only Albania but they beat No 2 seeds Wales last night.

Agreed. 

Apart from Fletcher and McGregor everyone has at least 2 campaigns in them. Goals from midfield is something we’ve struggled with regularly so potentially exciting times ahead. 

[Caledonian Craig]

Just now, ParisInAKilt said:

Agreed. 

Apart from Fletcher and McGregor everyone has at least 2 campaigns in them. Goals from midfield is something we’ve struggled with regularly so potentially exciting times ahead. 

Indeed. And I think we now have options in the centre of defence which is good. And look at the options in midfield such as McGregor, Armstrong, Christie, Fraser, McGinn, Forrest and the likes of McTominay waiting in the wings. Up front is the worry but the midfield does have goals in it. Also I think Middleton looks a real good prospect as well as Gilmour, Hornby and Cochrane. Lets not overlook overseas players such as Liam Henderson who could soon be in Serie A and even Ryan Gauld and Jack Harper are getting regular matches now and may be worth a look.

[JECK]

28 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said:

You can watch it at 6:48.

McKenna is marking the runner (#8) and has to leave him to now try and block Zahavi's shot.

He only turns to look back after the ball is past him.

 

It's maybe nit picking, don't want to dwell on it too much (he's going to be great for us) but for arguments sake is body position is side on and his feet are pointing to the left. If he stands square on he blocks that shot. The natural reaction is to turn away but it can be done.

[er yir macaroon]

20 minutes ago, Baz said:

Nobody.

McGinn has been a waste of a jersey so far for us.

That’s ridiculous, two slack passes, but otherwise quite astonishing ability to win tackles and drive the team forward. He’s got a role to play, especially in more demanding games. 

[Squirrelhumper]

19 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I'd agree. For the time being those in possession of the shirt should keep it. 

Agreed, with exception of Patterson IMO as he is a weak link at RB.

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Agreed, with exception of Patterson IMO as he is a weak link at RB.

Oh yes of course. Replace Ron Jeremy with O'Donnell or Tierney.

[Texas Pete]

3 hours ago, Jacques Hunt said:

After away defeat was always going to be massive game for me but Tuesday night not ideal for many. Don’t like these daft match days, especially as I live in darkest inglandshire. 

Tuesday is a normal day for midweek football but I agree that the ‘week of football’ in general is pish. As are some of the bizarre kick off times. 

[Texas Pete]

20 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Agreed, with exception of Patterson IMO as he is a weak link at RB.

I think even Paterson would agree with that. 

[Texas Pete]

36 minutes ago, bigfingers said:

The best thing about last night is we can say bye bye to a few players....Ritchie, Snodgrass, Cairney and Kev Macdonald to name a few.

Cairney will be in the next squad if he’s fit. Although I wouldn’t rule out a call off. 

Ritchie and Snodgrass don’t want to play for Scotland anymore anyway so last night’s game had no effect on those guys. 

[LewisEDI]

46 minutes ago, bigfingers said:

The best thing about last night is we can say bye bye to a few players....Ritchie, Snodgrass, Cairney and Kev Macdonald to name a few.

amen brother

[LewisEDI]

37 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Agreed, with exception of Patterson IMO as he is a weak link at RB.

was suprised he talked himself down so much about playing there, just gives opposing teams even more confidence to have a go at him, also he got a relatively big move off the back of playing there for hearts, its not like hes been chucked in goal. i actually thought he did well at times last night, won a lot of headers when the pressure was on and they were punting it. 

[macy37]

1 hour ago, faircity said:

No I wouldn't. There are loads of ways to look at it, simplified though, go through each European nation and see how many of each nations champion would beat their respective national team. Not that many. 

Many of the teams we’ve played lately, in fact say since the England defeat and I’d also include us, are not as strong as certainly Leipzig nor Salzburg to name just two.That in itself has me questioning why he doesn’t turn it on on a more regular basis. Has it been a motivational thing? Has Eck managed him so well he is at last producing? 

[andyD]

Overall, great result and some things to be very pleased and optimistic about. Well done to the boys.

McGregor - Not at fault for either goal, and make a great save late on. Solid performance.
Paterson - Early doors it looked like he would get roasted all night, but he improved and won more than his share of defensive headers. Good job in a position he doesn't play and doesn't like.
Robertson - Probably his best game since becoming captain. Balanced, controlled, kept everyone focussed.
Bates - Thought he did great tbh. Made good choices and even covered for Paterson on a few occasions. Decent shout of making the shirt his on this evidence.
McKenna - Solid. He and Bates looked the part for me. Wouldn't have suspected that we were missing like 7 centerbacks.
McGregor - Poor for the opening goal, but hopefully will learn from it and over all had a solid game.
Armstrong - A standout for me. Really drove us forward (sometimes literally) and I wouldn't pick a team without him now.
Christie - Linked really well, was a threat and what a great assist.
Forrest - What to say.. great to see him so happy playing for Scotland finally, and making such a difference.
Fraser - Another great game from him. Pace and ability, smart play and unselfish.
Fletcher - His best game i can remember. Was everywhere, making defensive headers, linking play well and was all round annoying for their defense. Think he plays a bit part in the success of the 3 behind him.

Shinnie - What we needed at the time. High workrate, buzzed around and close down the Israeli players, the lack of which was our main problem all game. Good job in the time he had.
McTominay - Did ok. Only had 7 minutes, and didnt really get into it like Shinnie did, but hey.
Phillips - Pretty ineffectual. Didn't get much involved, but he was the wrong guy to bring on given how play was going.

McLeish.. So.. 1st up.. well done on picking the same side. It was the right side. Part of me still feels like he accidentally fell onto this 11 and just stuck with it cos it worked the last time. I'm not sure that deserves a massive amount of credit, but he presumably had some input on how we played it. However, what on earth were those substitutions.
#1 they were late. The game was starting to shift a bit after our 3rd as Israel realised it was all or nothing. We needed to sure up the midfield and waited too long to do so, resulting in the goal.
Shinnie was 1 of the things we needed. Someone to just go close down and make them play early. Christie was the natural one to withdraw for that, as it left the rest of our defensive organisation in place. So fair enough on that one, if we'd just done that, then great.
But Armstrong off for Phillips.. what? We needed to sure up the midfield and secure possession. Fleck or McTominay were the obvious ones on the bench to come and help with this. Bringing Phillips in as a number 10, reduced our ability to keep the ball. It put more pressure on us. Just a bad idea.
McTominay for Fletch. On it's own, not the worst idea. along side it, McLeish pushed Forrest up front and put Phillips out wide. So our out ball to the front man never stuck because Forrest is 3 ft tall. Israel just won the header and took possession before coming back at us. If Phillips had been up front, he might have won some headers, used his fresh legs to close down and relieved some pressure. So again, the change around this substitution made our situation worse.
So for me, McLeish made really bad calls 2 out of 3 times he went to the subs bench, and that's worrying looking ahead.

For the team as a whole.. The thing that struck me was just how comfortable on the ball we are now. Everyone, and I mean everyone, can take a ball, trust their first touch and move it on. There's no McArthur first touches where it ends up 6 yards away, no panicking in possession and giving it away. Everyone took and moved it comfortably, even when under pressure. It made such a difference and was the foundation for everything we did, and was exemplified by Bates and McKenna playing give and go's on the edge of their box after a corner! We've got some proper footballers suddenly!

The other thing of note was a lack of defensive leadership. Not unexpected given that we've got two 22 year old centerbacks. But we lacked someone making organisational decisions. For the opening goal, someone should have been shouting for McGregor to close down. Another occasions, both McKenna and Bates were backing off, and McKenna should really have closed down, but no one told him to as soon as he didn't. Like i said, it's harsh to blame the two of them, especially since it's their 2nd game together, so perhaps it falls on the keeper to be calling it. McGregor's old enough and experienced enough to be helping direct them. It's something that needs sorted in future games.

Fingers crossed we can carry this confidence into the proper qualifiers and not be distracted by the fact we have a back door waiting for us if we fail. Looking forward to group B in two years time as well. Right now it feels like a tier we stand a chance of staying in.