Players - Club v Country

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

With call offs seeming more and more prevalent (whether through injury or not), something has got me thinking.  Go onto most club forum and you'll find a discussion about club v country, not just in Scotland, but anywhere.  I remember Motherwell fans had one a while back and quite a few were for club and not bothered about the national team. Plenty of English football fans I've met through the years are also not bothered about the national team, even though they've had far more successful times than we have. I'm sure some players feel exactly the same way.  Do you think we'll ever see an international standard player be called up for his country, only to respond that he has no interest in playing for the national team as playing for club is more important?

[sbcmfc]

Matt Ritchie?

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

25 minutes ago, sbcmfc said:

Matt Ritchie?

Matt Richie is different, he's English and chose international football with us to further career/increase his value. He never was 'Scottish'.

I mean someone who is called up and just turns round and says he's not interested in international football, full stop. Look at social media nowadays, international weekend is derided in some quarters, as if it gets in the way of 'proper football'.

 

If some fans feel like this, surely some players do too, but they always initially accept call ups if good enough. Maybe they don't want to put their head above the parapet, as they would look unpatriotic, I dunno

Edited November 16, 2018 by Bobby Russell's Lovechild

[Chripper]

I do understand why English-born Scottish internationals have their agendas question, as they're easy targets. But If anyone had anyone was deletional enough to think that it's only the non-Scottish born players who are CV whores, it's been blown wide apart as a result of the spate of call-offs. If people seriously think that 100% of Scottish internationals that were born here weren't seeing pound signs in their eyes as a result of their profile being raised by being internationals, those people really need to take their heads from the clouds.

If you think we're bad just look at our Rugby national side. They've just called up a guy called Gary Graham. He was born in Stirling. Here are some of his quotes:

(When called up by England) ‘When I came to Newcastle I thought I’d do well to play one Premiership game this year. Never in a million years did I think I’d be picked for England."

‘Around the same time Gregor Townsend called me about playing for Scotland. I told him I’d be stupid not to want to play for England. England want to be No1 in the world and I’m not sure Scotland will ever be anywhere near. I’ve grown up here so, yeah, I feel more English than Scottish.’

‘I’d f***ing love to play against Scotland next week, make 1,000 tackles and shove it in their face — but it might have to wait until next year.’

(Now his attitude has changed since he's been called up for Scotland)

'I'm Scottish through and through but England asked me first as I'm eligible through residency. It would have been a silly opportunity to pass up.'

See, just because you're born in Scotland doesn't mean that you can't be a mercenary. 

[JECK]

Interesting one. It's all about perception. Like a few others I'm sure, I know a few folk that deride Scottish football and everything about it (including national team)because they see England PL and the champions league as the be all and end all and always cite the quality of the football is way better, which of course it invariably is. They have no sense of tribalism i.e. they have no allegiance to hearts or hibs despite being born and bred in Edinburgh.(and I'm not talking about posh rugby lads).

Another thing is though if you have a youth SPL player playing for whoever they'll know damn well fine a few caps for Scotland will look good when it comes to negotiating any contract whether it be their current or new club.

i think you tend to find though players always say they want to compete at the highest level so I'm sure the chance to play against top players would take precedence.

[Robbo `81]

2 hours ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

With call offs seeming more and more prevalent (whether through injury or not), something has got me thinking.  Go onto most club forum and you'll find a discussion about club v country, not just in Scotland, but anywhere.  I remember Motherwell fans had one a while back and quite a few were for club and not bothered about the national team. Plenty of English football fans I've met through the years are also not bothered about the national team, even though they've had far more successful times than we have. I'm sure some players feel exactly the same way.  Do you think we'll ever see an international standard player be called up for his country, only to respond that he has no interest in playing for the national team as playing for club is more important?

I asked this very question on here a while back...For me I don't think the day this happens is too far in the future. IMO the most likely will be a player from South America / Australia / Far East who's not quite good enough to be an automatic starter for his country, but is good enough to be a very important player for his champions league regular European team...

With all the travelling involved he may just think or his club may persuade him "I can't really be arsed flying 18 hrs ( or whatever) twice in a week to sit on the bench for a friendly.....

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Robbo `81

[bonny78]

Clubs pay the wages and own the contracts. Also play 40 odd games compared with a few qualifiers per year. 

 

Club wins every time. 

[Chripper]

18 minutes ago, bonny78 said:

Clubs pay the wages and own the contracts. Also play 40 odd games compared with a few qualifiers per year. 

 

Club wins every time. 

The thing that stumps me is how on earth did you manage 19 reputation points?

[bonny78]

There ya go. I have you a like back.   Wink wink 

[Scotty CTA]

"McQueen feels the only way to prevent the desperate situation happening again is to invoke Fifa’s five-day rule, which prevents players turning out in their next club game if they do not have a genuine injury."

Thoughts?

[Clyde1998]

Just now, Scotty CTA said:

"McQueen feels the only way to prevent the desperate situation happening again is to invoke Fifa’s five-day rule, which prevents players turning out in their next club game if they do not have a genuine injury."

Thoughts?

I think it depends on that the reasons the players are withdrawing for is. Some injuries will only be short term, but they can't play in that time. Some of our players turned up for international duty, but have withdrawn through injury - so I presume the SFA would know if they are actually injured or not.

I think this should be invoked only if the SFA are certain that players are actually available, but then those players should probably be moved down the pecking order for selection in the future.

[bonny78]

1 hour ago, Clyde1998 said:

I think it depends on that the reasons the players are withdrawing for is. Some injuries will only be short term, but they can't play in that time. Some of our players turned up for international duty, but have withdrawn through injury - so I presume the SFA would know if they are actually injured or not.

I think this should be invoked only if the SFA are certain that players are actually available, but then those players should probably be moved down the pecking order for selection in the future.

Fk going all the way to albania for the nations league pish. 

[ErsatzThistle]

22 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

"McQueen feels the only way to prevent the desperate situation happening again is to invoke Fifa’s five-day rule, which prevents players turning out in their next club game if they do not have a genuine injury."

Thoughts?

The fans of Wales, Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland have the same complaints about clubs withdrawing players as we do.

The SFA should organise a meeting with the FAW, FAI & IFA and get an agreement to do the following....

In the next round of international fixtures each nation will target two clubs who pull players out of the next round of internationals for dubious "injuries". That would mean eight Premiership and Championship clubs being slapped with "the five day rule" and unable to use a key first team player. Keep on doing it until the kunts get the message.

When was the last time a Scotland manager actually used the "the five day rule" ? Have a hunch it might have been Berti and Celtic were the club in question.

[Third Lanark]

On 11/16/2018 at 7:48 PM, Chripper said:

I do understand why English-born Scottish internationals have their agendas question, as they're easy targets. But If anyone had anyone was deletional enough to think that it's only the non-Scottish born players who are CV whores, it's been blown wide apart as a result of the spate of call-offs. If people seriously think that 100% of Scottish internationals that were born here weren't seeing pound signs in their eyes as a result of their profile being raised by being internationals, those people really need to take their heads from the clouds.

If you think we're bad just look at our Rugby national side. They've just called up a guy called Gary Graham. He was born in Stirling. Here are some of his quotes:

(When called up by England) ‘When I came to Newcastle I thought I’d do well to play one Premiership game this year. Never in a million years did I think I’d be picked for England."

‘Around the same time Gregor Townsend called me about playing for Scotland. I told him I’d be stupid not to want to play for England. England want to be No1 in the world and I’m not sure Scotland will ever be anywhere near. I’ve grown up here so, yeah, I feel more English than Scottish.’

‘I’d f***ing love to play against Scotland next week, make 1,000 tackles and shove it in their face — but it might have to wait until next year.’

(Now his attitude has changed since he's been called up for Scotland)

'I'm Scottish through and through but England asked me first as I'm eligible through residency. It would have been a silly opportunity to pass up.'

See, just because you're born in Scotland doesn't mean that you can't be a mercenary. 

Many many years ago I heard an English journalist ask Billy Bremner (tongue-in-cheek but nonetheless) if he'd ever wished he'd been born in England (only birth mattered then); his reply was that h'ed always been proud to be Scottish. Anyone with the attitude of that Graham should be shot to pieces if it was the football team.

[Clyde1998]

5 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

The fans of Wales, Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland have the same complaints about clubs withdrawing players as we do.

The SFA should organise a meeting with the FAW, FAI & IFA and get an agreement to do the following....

In the next round of international fixtures each nation will target two clubs who pull players out of the next round of internationals for dubious "injuries". That would mean eight Premiership and Championship clubs being slapped with "the five day rule" and unable to use a key first team player. Keep on doing it until the kunts get the message.

When was the last time a Scotland manager actually used the "the five day rule" ? Have a hunch it might have been Berti and Celtic were the club in question.

It would be even better if there was a club that two or more countries could target, as that could be four or five players unavailable for them.

[Mox]

The primary reason is that, apart from major tournaments, international football is utter shite.

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

When was the last time a Scotland manager actually used the "the five day rule" ? Have a hunch it might have been Berti and Celtic were the club in question.

I seem to remember Craig Brown threatening to use it but I’m sure the SFA didn’t back him up. Can’t remember the details though. 

[Texas Pete]

Most players want to play international football. 

The two main problems are some players see it as almost a hobby and don’t take it that seriously and most club managers don’t like their players going off to play for their countries in case they get injured. 

Most clubs will withdraw their players from international football due to the slightest of knocks. I believe Tierney had a tight calf as an example. That wouldn’t even keep him out of a Celtic match but it was enough not to risk him for Scotland.

The SFA will not risk a player who has a slight knock anyway as they could technically be sued by a club for aggravating an existing injury. 

[Robbo `81]

2 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

I seem to remember Craig Brown threatening to use it but I’m sure the SFA didn’t back him up. Can’t remember the details though. 

It was Lambert when he was at Celtic - Brown "talked the talk" so to speak, but basically bottled it when the 1st "victim" of his tough new stance was going to be Lambert / A Celtic player....after that he never mentioned it again.

As an aside, have always wondered why Paul Lambert seems basically immune from criticism form the TA over this sort of thing, especially given the criticism other receive.

I obviously don't have exact stats, but at the same time would be very, very confident in saying that out of all players you would consider "1st choice selections" of his era, he was bay far the worst for withdrawing from a squad due to "injury" only to miraculously recover in time to play in Celtic's next game

[aaid]

On 16 November 2018 at 5:41 PM, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

With call offs seeming more and more prevalent (whether through injury or not), something has got me thinking.  Go onto most club forum and you'll find a discussion about club v country, not just in Scotland, but anywhere.  I remember Motherwell fans had one a while back and quite a few were for club and not bothered about the national team. Plenty of English football fans I've met through the years are also not bothered about the national team, even though they've had far more successful times than we have. I'm sure some players feel exactly the same way.  Do you think we'll ever see an international standard player be called up for his country, only to respond that he has no interest in playing for the national team as playing for club is more important?

A friend of mine was very friendly with a - then - current Scotland international around 20 years ago and at the same time as they were friendly my mate was also following the national team,.  The player said to my mate once, "I don't know why you waste your time going to watch Scotland".  This was when the player was in the squad.  He was born and raised in Scotland, not an "eligible" and was playing for a club in Scotland.  

Just as there are football fans who have no interest in the national team, it shouldn't surprise us that there are players who also aren't that bothered.   

[ErsatzThistle]

2 hours ago, Robbo `81 said:

It was Lambert when he was at Celtic - Brown "talked the talk" so to speak, but basically bottled it when the 1st "victim" of his tough new stance was going to be Lambert / A Celtic player....after that he never mentioned it again.

As an aside, have always wondered why Paul Lambert seems basically immune from criticism form the TA over this sort of thing, especially given the criticism other receive.

I obviously don't have exact stats, but at the same time would be very, very confident in saying that out of all players you would consider "1st choice selections" of his era, he was bay far the worst for withdrawing from a squad due to "injury" only to miraculously recover in time to play in Celtic's next game

Paul Lambert reversed his initial decision to retire from international football so as to aid Berti and a team that was one third young, nervous, inexperienced players and two thirds hopeless cloggers.

MON was not happy, he had been putting Lambert under a lot of pressure to quit Scotland. Indeed, O'Neil never could resist a snide, obnoxious remark about our national team, he did not like us for some reason.

Edited November 18, 2018 by ErsatzThistle

[Texas Pete]

29 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Paul Lambert reversed his initial decision to retire from international football so as to aid Berti and a team that was one third young, nervous, inexperienced players and two thirds hopeless cloggers.

MON was not happy, he had been putting Lambert under a lot of pressure to quit Scotland. Indeed, O'Neil never could resist a snide, obnoxious remark about our national team, he did not like us for some reason.

I remember him saying during the tournament we were by far the worst team at France 98. 

I mean, he may have had a point but when you consider Saudi Arabia and Iran were there and we competed with Brazil for most of the opening match and played quite well against Norway it wasn’t necessarily true and there was no need to say it the way he did. 

He always was a bit of a bellend though. 

[ErsatzThistle]

11 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

I remember him saying during the tournament we were by far the worst team at France 98. 

I mean, he may have had a point but when you consider Saudi Arabia and Iran were there and we competed with Brazil for most of the opening match and played quite well against Norway it wasn’t necessarily true and there was no need to say it the way he did. 

He always was a bit of a bellend though. 

It's curious that during his time as Celtic manager, O'Neil never complained about the managers of Sweden, Bulgaria, Wales, Denmark, Guinea or Belgium picking his players for internationals, yet at almost every international break he was moaning about Scotland and wanting his players withdrawn. Wonder why ?