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Israel Match Thread (11/10/2018)


Clyde1998

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2 minutes ago, Chripper said:

 

 then yes, 3 at the back would be the way forward. Unequivocally so.

Sorry I have to disagree with your last point. Tierney's strength and reason he has got where he is  is through being a left-back not a centre-back. Robertson is a left-back and is where he has made his mark and not as a wing-back. Soutter and McKenna are centre-backs in back fours for their clubs not in the formation they are being asked to play at a level new to them - international level. O'Donnell is a right-back and does not have the attributes that allow him to be a wing-back where he is being asked to play.

This formation is built around the fact that our two highest regarded players are Tierney and Robertson and this is the only way he can work out how to get them playing in the same side. Bad move.

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Tom English hits the nail on the head on the BBC website:

"Clearly, Kieran Tierney is not happy as a centre-half. Clearly, Andy Robertson is not happy as a left wing-back. McLeish's solution to the question about which of his wonderful left-backs should start at left-back is... neither of them. That's not a solution, that's a managerial death wish.

The country is blessed with two outstanding talents and is managing to neuter the pair of them. By picking both in positions where they're not comfortable or effective, McLeish is practically doing the job of an opposing manager.

If Andi Herzog, the Israel coach, watched DVDs of Robertson and Tierney at their best for Liverpool and Celtic, you could have forgiven him for breaking out in a sweat. When he saw where they were playing on Thursday, you could have forgiven him for breaking into song."

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23 minutes ago, Chripper said:

We have players comfortable with a 4 at the back system?

Why not take a wee look at our results for the past 20 years.

Oh, and by the way, we played 3-5-2-1 against England we almost beat them. For some reason people forget about this.

https://www.skysports.com/football/scotland-vs-england/teams/350131

Ah so that’s why we almost beat England......we were playing with an extra man.....😜

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54 minutes ago, Chripper said:

I just think we've done the 4 at the back thing for 20 years now, with many, many variations and tweaks, it's time to get back to the 3 at the back. And with that we have to be compact and play as a unit and be difficult to break down. The players have to get used to it, and any chance of that happening is by playing that way for more than a years. 

Agreed.

Sometimes the 4 at the back worked though. I just think it would be nice to be able to revert to that during the game if needed. We didn't on Thursday and Israel had a field day down the wings.

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No need to apologize, we all have our opinions and they all should be respected.

At the end of the day, these are professional players. Players can play in more than one position. Gary Neville a better center back than he was a right back, Paul Scholes started as a striker, etc.

Tom Boyd was a left back, but he played the entire France 98 campaign in the middle. He was out of position, but he did well, apart from the goal he scored for Brazil...

It's common consensus that Robertson is better going forward, and I remember Hull fans saying that he should be playing as a winger. Plus he began his career on the wing, so it's not like that position is foreign to him.

We have two choices (regardless who is managing us), either stick to a formation which has been a failure for 20 years, or go back to the future and try to replicate the results.

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6 minutes ago, Ian_86 said:

Sometimes the 4 at the back worked though. I just think it would be nice to be able to revert to that during the game if needed. We didn't on Thursday and Israel had a field day down the wings.

I agree. Adaptability is definitely a good thing.

Honestly, though, and I've been saying this for 20 years, but I just don't understand why Scotland fans are obsessed with 4 at the back. I don't get it. 

Edited by Chripper
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3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Dream on eh? A system works if you have players comfortable with it and we don't. Why not take a wee look at our results under McLeish for further evidence of it not working. Tierney is being wasted at centre-back (a role he is unfamiliar with). Robertson is being mis-used as a wing-back (another position alien to him) and O'Donnell is a right-back being asked to adapt into a right wing-back and to top that off you are trying to force inexperienced central defenders such as McKenna and Soutter to adapt to playing in a back three alien to them at club level.

 

It wasn't the defence that was the problem. It was all coming from a lack of closing down further up the park. 

This made it easy for Israel to pick their passes. 

Football is a ridiculously easy game, if everyone in the team does what they're supposed to do. 

The front 5 were the basis of the problem. 

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4 hours ago, kumnio said:

We should be beating Israel home and away, they are ranked 60ish places below us in the world rankings, they had only won something like 1 out of their last 10 home games. Its not arrogance, ignorance, or anything else, but the game should not have been in question. While we not be very good, we are significantly better than Israel.

We have hired an absolute disaster of a manager, people describing him as a winner etc are out of touch, he has been an abject utter failure since 2010, he has almost a decade of being terrible, he speaks like a fucking moron, he talks in idiotic soundbites, and rolls out every dumbass cliche known to the footballing man.

The fact that the SFA appointed him without even looking for anyone else was a pathetic shambles. We went from Michael O'Neill to Alex McLeish, the first name I can understand, although by no means did I support it, the second name is beyond belief. We may not have had the finances to attract the worlds best, but we didnt even try, we settled for him, really!!

Why are you putting any faith in the rankings System? They are utterly useless as a measure of quality. 

And your criticisms of McLeish don't actually comment on his ability to do the job, merely his presentation skills. 

You are right about the SFA though. 

I don't think McLeish is the answer but most of the critics on here are making personal comments rather than any comment on his skill/ability. That tells me they are biased against him no matter what happens. It's a sad state of affairs that after 2 competitive games (one of which we won) there are reactions like this. 

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2 minutes ago, RenfrewBlue said:

Why are you putting any faith in the rankings System? They are utterly useless as a measure of quality. 

And your criticisms of McLeish don't actually comment on his ability to do the job, merely his presentation skills. 

You are right about the SFA though. 

I don't think McLeish is the answer but most of the critics on here are making personal comments rather than any comment on his skill/ability. That tells me they are biased against him no matter what happens. It's a sad state of affairs that after 2 competitive games (one of which we won) there are reactions like this. 

There was always a high chance of negativity towards someone who had previously walked out

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4 hours ago, Chripper said:

Can our defenders defend better than the ones that we've had for the past 20 years? I think so. The fact that they now has pace has absolutely nothing at all to do with anything.

Who are these wingers with pace? Forrest? Fraser? Fraser only looks fast because his little legs move so fast. He isn't fast at all. He isn't even the fastest at Bournemouth, Ibe and King are faster than Fraser. I'd suspect that a few others are, too.

Ryan Fraser is one of the fastest players in the Premier League he once actually outpaced Hector Bellerin who was officially the fastest at the time. It literally only takes a quick Google search to find this information out

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All 10 outfield players looked knackered from the off. Mcgregor was calling for water from the bench after only 10 mins. They were so slow in getting up the park  - Israel were back in numbers before we even had a single forward in the box. Listless performance - in total contrast to the performance v Albania where the same 11 and same formation played with energy. Shouldn’t be too surprised though - 5 hour flight the day before the game and a 2 hour coach  journey is no way for professional players to prepare for an international fixture. Beyond me why they didn’t travel on Tuesday then have a light training session on Wednesday in the same climate as they were due to play in. SFA saving the costs of additional night’s accommodation in Israel?! Can’t be a conincidence that all 10 outfield players played badly.

 

I’m not convinced about mcleish either but bad management had nothing to do with the shabolic defending which led to souttar’s red. 

 

Anybody got got an email address for the SFA?

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22 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

Ryan Fraser is one of the fastest players in the Premier League he once actually outpaced Hector Bellerin who was officially the fastest at the time. It literally only takes a quick Google search to find this information out

It's a common misnomer that Fraser is fast. People think "Small" + "Winger" = Speed.

I've never seen him out-pace anyone.

20 fastest players in EPL last season

15 fastest players in EPL this season

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7 minutes ago, Chripper said:

It's a common misnomer that Fraser is fast. People think "Small" + "Winger" = Speed.

I've never seen him out-pace anyone.

20 fastest players in EPL last season

15 fastest players in EPL this season

Have a quick Google search for fastest in the Premier League last season mate.... He was 5th. And that was taken over a whole season. 

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6 hours ago, kumnio said:

I wasnt in Israel, first away game Ive missed for years, maybe I had a better view of the game than McLeish, but it was apparent what was happening in the first few minutes, and he did nothing.

A good manager is proactive, a bad manager is reactive, our manager did absolutely nothing. It was staggeringly inept management from him.

100%

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9 minutes ago, SWMM82 said:

They might not be the quickest when it comes to top speed, but that 5-10 yard burst of acceleration to get past a defender, Forrest and Fraser both have! 

Its the speed of thought which is the biggest issue with some of our players.

 

I'd give up both players for a carbon copy of Davie Cooper, a player who had zero pace.

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3 minutes ago, Chripper said:

I'd give up both players for a carbon copy of Davie Cooper, a player who had zero pace.

And though still not in the same league as Davie Cooper, even wee Faddy wasn’t the paciest. He had his good moments too........

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