Israel Match Thread (11/10/2018)

[Orraloon]

8 minutes ago, ScotlandWintheWorldCup said:

How about this for team and I know nothing compared to Mcleish.

                                McGregor

Tiernay         Souttar              McKenna           Robertson

                                McGinn

Middleton       Armstrong   McGregor             Forrest

                             Naismith

Too soon for middleton?  He does look class though

McGinn needs to be our B.Ferguson/S.Brown role.  DM but given the ball to play out.

Should be a one L.Griffiths up front but he needs to work on his fitness"!

Also Probably could have Snodgrass in middle and McGregor out on right.

This team would have beaten Israel

What is your current employment status?

Best regards

Chief Executive SFA

 

 

[Rolling hIlls]

1 minute ago, Orraloon said:

What is your current employment status?

Best regards

Chief Executive SFA

 

 

I see tierney and robertson are now two right backs. That would confuse the opposition mind

[bonny78]

Paul dickov will be in charge next year or 2020

[Orraloon]

At last we've somebody to bring some sense to this thread.

[andyD]

Utterly horrific watch that was.

McGregor was ok. Made a few saves, but most were straight at him and you'd expect him to stop them.
O'Donnell was ok. Not his best game, but didn't do much wrong.
Roberston. Just totally off form. Feels like being captain is distracting him from playing his normal game, and he's a player we need to be on form.
Tierney. Thought he had a decent game. Very stiffled at the back and was dying to break forwards.
Mulgrew. Was decent enough. Good nerves for the penalty. A loss when he went off injured.
Souttar. Obviously not his finest hour. Coped ok for most of the game. 2 silly bookings tho. Hopefully he'll learn from it.
McDonald. His best game for us imo. Was the only one of the central 3 who actually had any effect. God about, made tackles, broke things up and also played a few nice forward balls too. Ultimately let down by those around him tho.
C.McGregor.. At fault for the 1st, lets his man go and so Robertson is try to get across, but is wrong side. Did next to nothing in the 90.
McGinn. Did his customary bomb-scare give away that Israel should have benefited from. Other than that did little. The odd tackle and generally overhit hollywood balls.
Russell. Did what he does.. sat on the periphery of the attack and had a couple of good moments. Generally a bit lost as there was no focal point ahead of him, he was usually the furthest forward, which is not his game.
Naismith. Was way too deep and left us with no attacking outlet. Just bad all round.

Shape-wise.. it was poor. Naismith dropped deep frequently, meaning there was only Russell in a forward position. And that's just crazy, it's not something that would ever work. The 9 can drop in a front 3 because there are 2 runners looking for a flick or ball thru. Naismith dropped deep and just played 1-2s with the midfield. So it stifled us offensively. We couldn't find our only actual forward (Russell) and the odd time we did he had 2 men on him and no options (hence trying to take on 3 guys on one occassion, and somehow getting a throw). Maybe if McGregor or McGinn had run beyond Naismith we might have had more, but they were both very quiet, seemingly unwilling to do anything on the ball and stuck somewhere between attacking and defending, meaning they didn't really do either very well. So the entire forward half of the team stuttered. O'Donnell made the running on the right, but had nothing much to hit and his crossing wasn't the best. Robertson just kind of disappeared on the left. The back 3 and McDonald kind of worked in the first half, mainly limiting Israel to long range shots that McGregor could deal with. But they're just 4 guys.. and Israel got forward in numbers.

One of the most depressing things is that not only did McLeish let the team drop deep and play with no attack, he failed to change it when they kept doing it. Sure, losing Souttar on the hour doesn't help. But we'd been solidly 2nd best for the entire game to that point and McLeish made no moves to sure up the midfield, despite both Shinnie and Armstrong being sat on the bench. So on the pitch we started wrong and we stayed wrong.

Looking at what McLeish said after teh game.. good grief. People gave Strachan stick.. but this is just cuckoo land. "we started really well" "the shape worked" "very comfortable first half" the blamed Israel for not being rubbish and the weather for being warm. "Did we ever say we're at a level who should be qualifying for major tournaments?" no.. but is it unreasonable to suggest we don't get played off the park by a team 94th in the world? ffs.

We might still come top of the group.. but lets be clear, that was the minimum requirement before we started. Albania and Israel are poor.. and the table doesn't lie. We're on a par with them right now.

[Squirrelhumper]

5 minutes ago, andyD said:

Utterly horrific watch that was.

McGregor was ok. Made a few saves, but most were straight at him and you'd expect him to stop them.
O'Donnell was ok. Not his best game, but didn't do much wrong.
Roberston. Just totally off form. Feels like being captain is distracting him from playing his normal game, and he's a player we need to be on form.
Tierney. Thought he had a decent game. Very stiffled at the back and was dying to break forwards.
Mulgrew. Was decent enough. Good nerves for the penalty. A loss when he went off injured.
Souttar. Obviously not his finest hour. Coped ok for most of the game. 2 silly bookings tho. Hopefully he'll learn from it.
McDonald. His best game for us imo. Was the only one of the central 3 who actually had any effect. God about, made tackles, broke things up and also played a few nice forward balls too. Ultimately let down by those around him tho.
C.McGregor.. At fault for the 1st, lets his man go and so Robertson is try to get across, but is wrong side. Did next to nothing in the 90.
McGinn. Did his customary bomb-scare give away that Israel should have benefited from. Other than that did little. The odd tackle and generally overhit hollywood balls.
Russell. Did what he does.. sat on the periphery of the attack and had a couple of good moments. Generally a bit lost as there was no focal point ahead of him, he was usually the furthest forward, which is not his game.
Naismith. Was way too deep and left us with no attacking outlet. Just bad all round.

Shape-wise.. it was poor. Naismith dropped deep frequently, meaning there was only Russell in a forward position. And that's just crazy, it's not something that would ever work. The 9 can drop in a front 3 because there are 2 runners looking for a flick or ball thru. Naismith dropped deep and just played 1-2s with the midfield. So it stifled us offensively. We couldn't find our only actual forward (Russell) and the odd time we did he had 2 men on him and no options (hence trying to take on 3 guys on one occassion, and somehow getting a throw). Maybe if McGregor or McGinn had run beyond Naismith we might have had more, but they were both very quiet, seemingly unwilling to do anything on the ball and stuck somewhere between attacking and defending, meaning they didn't really do either very well. So the entire forward half of the team stuttered. O'Donnell made the running on the right, but had nothing much to hit and his crossing wasn't the best. Robertson just kind of disappeared on the left. The back 3 and McDonald kind of worked in the first half, mainly limiting Israel to long range shots that McGregor could deal with. But they're just 4 guys.. and Israel got forward in numbers.

One of the most depressing things is that not only did McLeish let the team drop deep and play with no attack, he failed to change it when they kept doing it. Sure, losing Souttar on the hour doesn't help. But we'd been solidly 2nd best for the entire game to that point and McLeish made no moves to sure up the midfield, despite both Shinnie and Armstrong being sat on the bench. So on the pitch we started wrong and we stayed wrong.

Looking at what McLeish said after teh game.. good grief. People gave Strachan stick.. but this is just cuckoo land. "we started really well" "the shape worked" "very comfortable first half" the blamed Israel for not being rubbish and the weather for being warm. "Did we ever say we're at a level who should be qualifying for major tournaments?" no.. but is it unreasonable to suggest we don't get played off the park by a team 94th in the world? ffs.

We might still come top of the group.. but lets be clear, that was the minimum requirement before we started. Albania and Israel are poor.. and the table doesn't lie. We're on a par with them right now.

I stopped reading after the C.McGregor bit.

He was our best outfield player by a country mile.

[Tartan Chris]

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Albania beat Israel, NI wiped the floor with Israel only last month.

We're a shambles.

Didn't Northern Ireland do that at Windsor Park? No different to completely dominanting Albania at Hampden.

Scotland are in that middling group of international teams who are hard to beat on their own turf (not counting friendlies) but lose all sense of ambition and seemingly ambition when going beyond Hadrian's Wall.

[Tartan Chris]

1 hour ago, ScotlandWintheWorldCup said:

When was our last big important away win?

France 06, oops that's it.

When we played great and beat Norway and Slovenia 04 and Croatia 12 we were already as good as dead in qualifying.

Even in Broons era it was more big away draws, Russia, Austria than actual wins, can only think of Finland 95.

In terms of rankings Croatia in June 2013 was easily most impressive since France but again that group was pretty dead when that result happened.

Looking back at the euro 2016 campaign drawing in Poland and ROI were fine results but it's no good when you then go and lose in Georgia while those two win. Losing 3-0 in Slovakia was also a key defeat in last campaign.

I just rank Israel in that category, might've still scraped a point if Souttar hadn't got a red.

[tjm007]

So how many points do we need to avoid relegation ? 6 ?

 

[bigfingers]

Last night was nowhere near our best 11 or best formation. Mcleish is now keeping our best players on the bench to fit other players into this ridiculous formation. He needs to ditch the 3 at the back otherwise there is no way we will top the group. To have forrest and Armstrong on the bench and o donnell and macdonald on the pitch is complete insanity. We were playing against a team ranked 90 odd, we shouldn't need 2 holding midfielders.

[Orraloon]

3 minutes ago, tjm007 said:

So how many points do we need to avoid relegation ? 6 ?

 

Another two points would do it. Although we could get relegated if we get another 3 points. I think that's right. I might need somebody to check my calculations on that though?

[hamilton wanderer]

It's all about opinions but C McGregor is Callum McGregor right?

I just didn't see what squirrel humper saw there.  Also I certainly didn't see McDonald or O'Donnell having a good game.

 

Forrest at least took the game to them when he came on and has to start next time.

I honestly can't remember a performance as bad as that. Hamilton Accies could have beaten them and I left Easter Road at 4-0 on Saturday and was relieved it was only 6 in the end (its been a very bad week for me).

[romanticscot]

Last night result and performance was dire, and clearly the formation was not working and neither was the manager's awareness during the match to protect our narrow 1 goal lead or make the changes to extend it. So let me just say this, I am reading comments about him having an issue with alcohol or having some kind of senile episodes - neither are a laughing matter - if there is genuine concern with those around the guy then his employer needs to look into that sensitively.  If there is truth in these then sadly for the man, he needs to look after his health and possibly not fit enough for employment.  I can't recall in I think 17 years I have been coming to this site of any of our managers having people comment n their mental health and with the exception of G Burley none have had any gossip about issues with drink.

So lets talk about the team - 3 -5- 1 is not the answer- we tried it, it failed now lets move on.  Albania at home we won but they were not an attacking threat other than when we made an error and they tried a pot shot.  So let we play a poor Israel team last night and not anything like the near of Portugal,  Argentina or France and they showed how fragile we are in that formation.  Israel to their credit were up for it, or became aware how garbage we were on the night and their confidence rose.  I said in the first half, if there is anyone to let them get over their current abysmal form - its us. Israel - your welcome.

So formation wise we have to play 4 at the back and the only two viable options in my view are 4 2 3 1 or 4 1 4 1 or both during a game depending on the need.

Robertson and Tierney both excellent left backs - in my mind I have to start with 1 - well the Manager has given Robertson the armband - not a wise move in terms of implications for man management. 

If I play Tierney at right back - then we are sacrificing the attacking tools of T, and it we play Robertson at left mid then we have again we have probably done the same thing so as much as we want the answer settled I think there are a few.

If Ryan Fraser is fit, he is my left midfield. if he is not then I going to atleast try Robertson in left midfield and look to try 

T at right back, R at left back and I am going to try and swap them intermittently throughout the game. 

If that doesn't work and T is improving at a right back then if both are bit then I would do what Strachan did. 

And what about SOD - well we truly are a fickle bunch, a month ago after one good game MANY on here were singing his praises not for the game but saying we have found our right back, and now after the game yesterday MANY are saying he should be nowhere near the squad. Regarding him yesterday our formation was not working so SOD did not have a great game and the answer is either his experience or he is not good enough, many things were not working and his application was affected - atleast he was in position more familiar to him.  In my mind I need 3-4 consistent performances before I am considering something settled.

Starting with Portugal I have two objectives

Look at Robertson in left midfield and I am trying Robertson and Tierney alternating - We dont have any other windows to try something so it could fail miserably if it does then I put a line through something else which doesn't work.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by romanticscot

[Orraloon]

6 minutes ago, hamilton wanderer said:

 

 

Forrest at least took the game to them when he came on and has to start next time.

 

I couldn't help laughing when he was about 25 yards from goal and, once again, he kicked the ball too far in front of himself and it went out for a goal kick, then he ran into the defender and expected to get a free kick.

I assume he gets free kicks for that when he plays for Celtic? He does it all the time for Scotland and, quite rightly IMO, gets nothing.

He just runs around aimlessly without a clue where he is going. His teammates haven't got a clue where he is going either. You would think that might baffle the opposition defenders, but it doesn't. They just vaguely follow him about until he either runs straight at one of them or he kicks the ball out of the park.

He is just a poor imitation of Ted McMinn. 

[ceudmilefailte]

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I stopped reading after the C.McGregor bit.

He was our best outfield player by a country mile.

How long is a mile in Kilmarnock?

"O'Donnell was ok. Not his best game, but didn't do much wrong.", I suppose if you don't do any thing you don't do much wrong.

"McDonald. His best game for us imo. Was the only one of the central 3 who actually had any effect. God about, made tackles, broke things up and also played a few nice forward balls too. Ultimately let down by those around him tho"  Agreed and I would say he has been solid in our last three games. Problem is Mcdonald is by no way the best player in the squad.which means something is far wrong with the set up of the team

I hope this is the end of playing three at the back. Some one said three of the world cup semi finalist did but they all had some of the best players in the world. Hardly any top club teams in Europe plays without two full backs now, we simply don't have enough quality to think we can.

I'll actually take this as a positive result if Mcleish learns that from last night

 

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, andyD said:

 

We might still come top of the group.. but lets be clear, that was the minimum requirement before we started. Albania and Israel are poor.. and the table doesn't lie. We're on a par with them right now.

Did you expect us to be anything other than "on a par with them"?

[Angstgoose]

2 hours ago, Rolling hIlls said:

What do u mean there is no loch ness monster? Can u prove that? Dinny burst the lassies mind in the space of 3 days!!

😄 true better no ruin her holiday, she's got her wee binoculars looked oot.

Suppose clinging tae the belief there is a Nessie ( which I suppose I do ) is much like clinging tae the belief Scotland will once again qualify for a tournament. 😂

Better see a big improvement on Sunday fae this team and manager.....

Edited October 12, 2018 by Angstgoose

[Return of Yermaw]

I can't think of any country that would put up with a football association like ours for so long:

-  abject managerial appointment after appointment throughout all levels - either through cronyism, ineptitude, insularity or a combination of all three;

- the appointment of Malky Mackay as Performance Director - his career nose dive seemingly made him an ideal candidate for such a position; his apparent racist, sexist and homophonic views not considered a hindrance in any shape or form;

- the handling of the national stadium issue and the extension to make a decision on something they had deliberated on for years before announcing what everyone knew would be the case;; 

There are countless other issues that can be cited. Yet, nothing ever changes, no overhaul or re-structuring takes place - the same types of persons are appointed time and time again to govern our game. And the Scottish footballing public just continue to lap it up albeit now, in significantly smaller numbers. McLeish is the latest of abject appointments and it is clear to all sane minded persons that we will not quality for 2020, either through the Nations League or through the normal qualifying route. And perhaps to make matters worse is that any arguable progress made in the second lap of Strachan's tenure has now been all but lost and we will regress even more before McLeish is relieved of his position. And then the SFA will use their same approach to appoint the next guy......ad finitum...... 

 

[Rolling hIlls]

2 hours ago, Return of Yermaw said:

I can't think of any country that would put up with a football association like ours for so long:

-  abject managerial appointment after appointment throughout all levels - either through cronyism, ineptitude, insularity or a combination of all three;

- the appointment of Malky Mackay as Performance Director - his career nose dive seemingly made him an ideal candidate for such a position; his apparent racist, sexist and homophonic views not considered a hindrance in any shape or form;

- the handling of the national stadium issue and the extension to make a decision on something they had deliberated on for years before announcing what everyone knew would be the case;; 

There are countless other issues that can be cited. Yet, nothing ever changes, no overhaul or re-structuring takes place - the same types of persons are appointed time and time again to govern our game. And the Scottish footballing public just continue to lap it up albeit now, in significantly smaller numbers. McLeish is the latest of abject appointments and it is clear to all sane minded persons that we will not quality for 2020, either through the Nations League or through the normal qualifying route. And perhaps to make matters worse is that any arguable progress made in the second lap of Strachan's tenure has now been all but lost and we will regress even more before McLeish is relieved of his position. And then the SFA will use their same approach to appoint the next guy......ad finitum...... 

 

Cheer up ☺

[fringo]

19 hours ago, daviebee said:

We were utterly fkin turgid long before Souttar walked.

I know, I know. Souttar just made it worse.

[Orraloon]

6 minutes ago, fringo said:

I know, I know. Souttar just made it worse.

It was still 1-1 when Souttar went off. That would seem like a decent result now.

[Rolling hIlls]

11 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It was still 1-1 when Souttar went off. That would seem like a decent result now.

I met souttar  hd is a good guy

[Rolling hIlls]

The glenlivet is like an angel pishing in yer tongue.

[Rolling hIlls]

Which is why i talk it sae much. Scotland forever guys. Away tae meet a lassie. Mary o argyll.

[dezmondo]

As much as Souttar invited pressure upon himself in the lead up to his sending off, it was never a foul never mind a booking. Never touched him!

As for McLeish, he rightly should be getting stick for last night, not for getting it wrong initially but for his inability to recognise it wasn't working and therefore changing it. That said though, again the players are getting away with murder! Individually terrible and should be doing better regardless of the formation.