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Flure

September 18 2014

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I recall seeing the clip they kept showing on the news of about half a dozen folk celebrating at a count,  a wondering what it would've been like if the result had gone the other way.

My office was like a morgue on the Friday morning, full of seriously gutted Yes voters and sheepish No voters.

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3 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

More that voting is a waste of time 

Independence wouldn’t be some kind of shot at changing whatever it is has made you disenchanted enough to think like that?

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For me (at the time) the question I asked the most was why is it ok for 200+ countries to be sovereign states, whose status is supported by all UK parties, and yet equally ok for those same Unionist parties deny such sovereignty to Scotland?

I get that the Tories will have always backed Imperialism, but Labour??? Labour's opposition here to self-determination has always baffled me.

Jeremy Cornyn is someone who I share so much of my politics AND like Jeremy I would back NI leaving the UK and would back full statehood for Palestine.

How can he (and his party) therefore have any logical or credible opposition to Scotland also having sovereignty? 

 Can any Labour supporters here please try and explain this political paradox to me?

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12 minutes ago, buckielugger said:

Jeremy Cornyn is someone who I share so much of my politics AND like Jeremy I would back NI leaving the UK and would back full statehood for Palestine.

How can he (and his party) therefore have any logical or credible opposition to Scotland also having sovereignty? 

 Can any Labour supporters here please try and explain this political paradox to me?

He still seems a bit torn over it (not that the PLP are though)...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45585737

 

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1 hour ago, buckielugger said:

How can he (and his party) therefore have any logical or credible opposition to Scotland also having sovereignty? 

 Can any Labour supporters here please try and explain this political paradox to me?

Ralph Milliband exposed the Labour party for what it really is

It is every bit Establishment and Unionist as the other English parties

Ever since the Labour Party came into being as a non-socialist organization, socialists in it have nursed the hope that, some day, they would succeed in transforming it into a Socialist party, the instrument of a fundamental recasting of the social order, the agency for the creation of a Socialist Commonwealth and a “society of equals”. This transformation of the Labour Party was to be accomplished by steady socialist pressure upon the leadership through the constituencies, the unions, the parliamentary party, Annual Conference, etc. This was the work to which such organizations as the ILP, the Socialist League, Victory for Socialism and other groups addressed themselves inside the Labour Party; and other organizations, notably the Communist Party, have at one time or another devoted much effort to the same purpose from outside the Labour Party. Alternatively, the Labour Left inside the party occasionally hoped, not merely to persuade the leadership to adopt more progressive policies, but actually to capture the party, and to substitute its own voice for that of the existing leaders; such hope certainly existed in the early ‘fifties, when it was believed on the Left, rather unrealistically, that Aneurin Bevan might win the struggle for the leadership of the Party, and when it was also believed, whether realistically or not is a moot point, that this would mark a dramatic shift in the bias and policies of the Party. For the most part and at most times, however, the Labour Left has been well aware of the fact that it stood no chance of capturing the Party and it has therefore been content or at least resigned to gain some footholds in the apparatus (e.g. in the constituency representation on the National Executive) and to try and influence the party leaders by pressure, persuasion and manoeuvre; with the ultimate hope that, somehow, some day, the Labour Party would not only call itself a socialist party, but actually act like one.

Edited by Ally Bongo

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2014 changed Scotland for ever....
Made the concept of independence and self determination main stream and acceptable pub conversation.

Strangely I think Brexit has made Scottish independence more likely than ever.
Tories now unpicking their precious union for us.
It has been a quick 4 years, however I still believe we are on the right path.

Scotlands day will come.

  • Upvote 1

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5 hours ago, buckielugger said:

For me (at the time) the question I asked the most was why is it ok for 200+ countries to be sovereign states, whose status is supported by all UK parties, and yet equally ok for those same Unionist parties deny such sovereignty to Scotland?

I get that the Tories will have always backed Imperialism, but Labour??? Labour's opposition here to self-determination has always baffled me.

Jeremy Cornyn is someone who I share so much of my politics AND like Jeremy I would back NI leaving the UK and would back full statehood for Palestine.

How can he (and his party) therefore have any logical or credible opposition to Scotland also having sovereignty? 

 Can any Labour supporters here please try and explain this political paradox to me?

It's pretty straightforward. The Labour Party doesn't have any prescence in Northern Ireland, they do in Scotland.  The Labour Party's primary aim is in furthering the ends of the Labour Party.  

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1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

It doesn't waste very much of your time.


To my mind one vote makes little difference (of course!)
However what is the alternative to democracy ?
Personally I feel obliged to turn up and vote.
Spoil the ballot paper if you genuinely believe in "none of the above".

Putting an X in the box says to government you are watching back....

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8 minutes ago, Haggis_trap said:


To my mind one vote makes little difference (of course!)
However what is the alternative to democracy ?
Personally I feel obliged to turn up and vote.
Spoil the ballot paper if you genuinely believe in "none of the above".

Putting an X in the box says to government you are watching back....

Absolutely this. Always exercise your right to vote. Many people through history have made the ultimate sacrifice in order for others to gain that right.

 

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9 hours ago, aaid said:

It's pretty straightforward. The Labour Party doesn't have any prescence in Northern Ireland, they do in Scotland.  The Labour Party's primary aim is in furthering the ends of the Labour Party.  

Aye, but there's more to it than that. I think Labour socialists have always looked at the historical context. The sight of the British army slaughtering innocents in Derry and Ballymurphy - set against the backdrop of plantation and partition - challenges and overrides Labour's unionism. The same context doesn't apply in Scotland. 

It's the 'George Galloway doctrine'.

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2 hours ago, Dave78 said:

Aye, but there's more to it than that. I think Labour socialists have always looked at the historical context. The sight of the British army slaughtering innocents in Derry and Ballymurphy - set against the backdrop of plantation and partition - challenges and overrides Labour's unionism. The same context doesn't apply in Scotland. 

It's the 'George Galloway doctrine'.

The George Galloway doctrine is that itbis being in the UK that stops Scots Protestants from slaughtering the Catholics.  No, I'm not making that up, he really said it. 

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2 hours ago, aaid said:

The George Galloway doctrine is that itbis being in the UK that stops Scots Protestants from slaughtering the Catholics.  No, I'm not making that up, he really said it. 

I remember all that nonsense from him. That cunt was raised in Dundee. Myself in Perth. Although I did experience a lot of shite growing up as a Catholic he is a drama Queen with some of the garbage he makes up. Like living in the 70s is the same as now. If that piece of wank really cared about Catholicism prejudice he’d want to break away from the very people in London who are responsible for it at the very top.

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On 9/18/2018 at 7:52 PM, Orraloon said:

Some selective quoting going on here, you also predicted 60% YES.;)

I did. based on some very good information.

But the outcome showed I was wrong.

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On 9/19/2018 at 10:05 PM, buckielugger said:

Thanks for thread, Flute.

 

I've had some insults thrown at me over the years, but.......

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On 9/19/2018 at 10:05 PM, buckielugger said:

Thanks for thread, Flute.

 

15 hours ago, Flure said:

I've had some insults thrown at me over the years, but.......

He’s thinking of you when you were young and had no sense. 

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16 hours ago, Flure said:

I did. based on some very good information.

But the outcome showed I was wrong.

I had the pleasure of being in Flure's company when it became apparent his prediction was wrong.  Well the company was pleasant even if his prediction being wrong wasn't pleasant at all. 

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