Nations League

[exile]

2 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

You said ‘& extra games if making the playoffs’.

We’ve got extra competitive games whether we make the playoffs or not due to the Nations League but playoffs would still have existed even if the Nations League didn’t.

Fingers crossed we won’t actually need the playoffs anyway but time will tell on that one. 

Yes, I mean 4 competitive games in 10 weeks is itself welcome (and more than usual)... plus even more (competitive games) if we get to play-offs.

Still getting used to it. Both the number of games (Scotland interest) and the increased opportunity. 

[Texas Pete]

Just now, exile said:

Yes, I mean 4 competitive games in 10 weeks is itself welcome (and more than usual)... plus even more (competitive games) if we get to play-offs.

Still getting used to it. Both the number of games (Scotland interest) and the increased opportunity. 

Cool, I misunderstood what you meant.

I hope we get a group of 6 next year so we get 10 competitive games instead of 8 and two friendlies. 

[exile]

20 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

Cool, I misunderstood what you meant.

I hope we get a group of 6 next year so we get 10 competitive games instead of 8 and two friendlies. 

Yes it was readable both ways.

And yes, a larger group would mean more games.

Looking ahead I wonder what it will be like, especially if we have the drama of a play-off for the Euros this season, what will happen next time when there is not Euros to play for, and "just" promotion and relegation (if I understand the rules rightly). In that case theNL games would be competitive, but not as competitive, or at least, not as much at stake...    

[Orraloon]

28 minutes ago, exile said:

Yes it was readable both ways.

And yes, a larger group would mean more games.

Looking ahead I wonder what it will be like, especially if we have the drama of a play-off for the Euros this season, what will happen next time when there is not Euros to play for, and "just" promotion and relegation (if I understand the rules rightly). In that case theNL games would be competitive, but not as competitive, or at least, not as much at stake...    

They could make it a wee bit more competitive if they use the Nations League rankings for the WC draw. I'm not sure FIFA would allow them to do that though?

[Texas Pete]

41 minutes ago, exile said:

Yes it was readable both ways.

And yes, a larger group would mean more games.

Looking ahead I wonder what it will be like, especially if we have the drama of a play-off for the Euros this season, what will happen next time when there is not Euros to play for, and "just" promotion and relegation (if I understand the rules rightly). In that case theNL games would be competitive, but not as competitive, or at least, not as much at stake...    

It certainly won’t be as good but still better than meaningless friendlies. Particularly if we get promoted and play better teams.

 

12 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

They could make it a wee bit more competitive if they use the Nations League rankings for the WC draw. I'm not sure FIFA would allow them to do that though?

I’m not 100% but they probably could do this. Isn’t it up to UEFA how they run the World Cup qualifiers, with guidelines from FIFA?

I did read somewhere a while back that FIFA are planning their own version of the Nations League so I have a feeling the UEFA Nations League will eventually end up being every 4 years anyway. 

[Lion Rampant]

15 hours ago, exile said:

Yes it was readable both ways.

And yes, a larger group would mean more games.

Looking ahead I wonder what it will be like, especially if we have the drama of a play-off for the Euros this season, what will happen next time when there is not Euros to play for, and "just" promotion and relegation (if I understand the rules rightly). In that case theNL games would be competitive, but not as competitive, or at least, not as much at stake...    

If UEFA are to get an additional 3 places from the 2026 WC then they *could* use the Nations League to generate 4 teams from Leagues A, B & C to playoff for those 3 additional places.

Obviously this would mean teams in League D being shut out of a WC playoff place, but as they are guaranteed a place at the Euros, this may not be an issue overall.

Would also mean tweaking actual qualifying to mean group winners and a named number of best runners up qualifying automatically.

 

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, Lion Rampant said:

If UEFA are to get an additional 3 places from the 2026 WC then they *could* use the Nations League to generate 4 teams from Leagues A, B & C to playoff for those 3 additional places.

Obviously this would mean teams in League D being shut out of a WC playoff place, but as they are guaranteed a place at the Euros, this may not be an issue overall.

Would also mean tweaking actual qualifying to mean group winners and a named number of best runners up qualifying automatically.

 

I doubt FIFA would be happy with League B and C teams being guaranteed a place at the World Cup. There’s enough shite teams at that tournament as it is. 

If you mean the playoff teams could be decided by the Nations League but leagues A, B or C weren’t guaranteed a place, what would be the point? League C teams wouldn’t get a look in. I would say the playoffs should be decided by the qualifying groups. 

[Lion Rampant]

2 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

I doubt FIFA would be happy with League B and C teams being guaranteed a place at the World Cup. There’s enough shite teams at that tournament as it is. 

If you mean the playoff teams could be decided by the Nations League but leagues A, B or C weren’t guaranteed a place, what would be the point? League C teams wouldn’t get a look in. I would say the playoffs should be decided by the qualifying groups. 

I mean that one place would be awarded to teams from each league, would make the NL a higher profile tournament and would not really prevent any of the bigger nations from qualifying.

I can't see FIFA having too much of an issue with it to be honest. Teams that made the WC in 2018 from League B included Sweden and Denmark and from League C there was Serbia, none of which performed poorly in Russia. Most of the other current League B teams have been to a WC recently and by the time you get to League C then the likliehood is that it would be one of the stronger teams that would qualify anyway.

It's not like we'll be sending Gibraltar 😀

[Texas Pete]

7 minutes ago, Lion Rampant said:

I mean that one place would be awarded to teams from each league, would make the NL a higher profile tournament and would not really prevent any of the bigger nations from qualifying.

I can't see FIFA having too much of an issue with it to be honest. Teams that made the WC in 2018 from League B included Sweden and Denmark and from League C there was Serbia, none of which performed poorly in Russia. Most of the other current League B teams have been to a WC recently and by the time you get to League C then the likliehood is that it would be one of the stronger teams that would qualify anyway.

It's not like we'll be sending Gibraltar 😀

No but there would be a risk of a poor League C team (Scotland for example 😂) like Lithuania or Cyprus qualifying. I doubt FIFA would want that. Brazil would potentially pump them 10-0. Can’t see it happening for that reason. 

It will be interesting to see how it works if FIFA bring in their own version of the Nations League though. 

[ceudmilefailte]

50 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

No but there would be a risk of a poor League C team (Scotland for example 😂) like Lithuania or Cyprus qualifying. I doubt FIFA would want that. Brazil would potentially pump them 10-0. Can’t see it happening for that reason. 

It will be interesting to see how it works if FIFA bring in their own version of the Nations League though. 

Could lead to some exciting new destinations for the elite😎

[Texas Pete]

27 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Could lead to some exciting new destinations for the elite😎

From what I can figure out it would only be the best 8 teams from around the world that would play each other in a knock out tournament.

The league stage would be at confederation level so would most likely just like the UEFA Nations League. 

The elite can stop frothing at the mouth. 

[exile]

So if Israel beat Albania (at home, tonight) they can travel to Glasgow knowing a draw could be enough to win the group....

....if they have superior goal difference or other criteria...

1. Position in the group;
2. Higher number of points;
3. Superior goal difference;
4. Higher number of goals scored;
5. Higher number of goals scored away from home;
6. Higher number of wins;
7. Higher number of wins away from home;
8. Disciplinary points in all group matches (1 point for a single yellow card, 3 points for a red card as a consequence of two yellow cards, 3 points for a direct red card, 4 points for a yellow card followed by a direct red card);
9. Position in the UEFA national team coefficient ranking system.

 

Similarly if Albania win then they go into the Scotland game (their last) knowing that a home draw could be enough by the same criteria, though they could never be sure we wouldn't have the advantage of knowing what we had to do in the last game in terms of goal difference.

I guess a draw would be best of all...

 

[Texas Pete]

39 minutes ago, exile said:

So if Israel beat Albania (at home, tonight) they can travel to Glasgow knowing a draw could be enough to win the group....

....if they have superior goal difference or other criteria...

1. Position in the group;
2. Higher number of points;
3. Superior goal difference;
4. Higher number of goals scored;
5. Higher number of goals scored away from home;
6. Higher number of wins;
7. Higher number of wins away from home;
8. Disciplinary points in all group matches (1 point for a single yellow card, 3 points for a red card as a consequence of two yellow cards, 3 points for a direct red card, 4 points for a yellow card followed by a direct red card);
9. Position in the UEFA national team coefficient ranking system.

 

Similarly if Albania win then they go into the Scotland game (their last) knowing that a home draw could be enough by the same criteria, though they could never be sure we wouldn't have the advantage of knowing what we had to do in the last game in terms of goal difference.

I guess a draw would be best of all...

 

I think it comes down to head to head first. You’ve posted the criteria for determining the overall league ranking and not the ranking in each group. 

As long as we don’t lose in Albania and beat Israel at home we will be guaranteed to win the group as far as I can work out. 

If Israel win tomorrow and Albania beat us by less than 2 goals next month we will need to beat Israel by more than one goal to win the group. I think. 

If we are all tied on 6 points though I think it will just come down to overall goal difference. We have the best GD at the moment and would have the advantage of knowing how many goals we’d need to beat Israel by in the last game.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Texas Pete

[exile]

15 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

I think it comes down to head to head first. You’ve posted the criteria for determining the overall league ranking and not the ranking in each group. 

As long as we don’t lose in Albania and beat Israel at home we will be guaranteed to win the group as far as I can work out. 

If Israel win tomorrow and Albania beat us next month we will need to beat Israel by more than one goal to win the group. I think. 

Ah you're right. my search went straight to 'league' rankings not 'group' rankings

The group ranking system appears to be

1. Higher number of points obtained in the matches played among the teams in question;
2. Superior goal difference in matches played among the teams in question;
3. Higher number of goals scored in the matches played among the teams in question;
4. Higher number of goals scored away from home in the matches played among the teams in question;
5. etc... (continues to 12 criteria)

In your first scenario we'd have at least 7 points and that seems to be the threshold number. We'd then edge out Albania (if they beat Israel, so also 7 points) on head to head.

In your second scenario, that sounds as if all teams would be on 6 points, so wouldn't it depend on the relative goal differences between all 3 teams?

Edited October 14, 2018 by exile

[exile]

There are maybe too many hypotheticals for now, will be easier to work it out this time tomorrow.

[Texas Pete]

Just now, exile said:

Ah you're right. my search went straight to 'league' rankings not 'group' rankings

The group ranking system appears to be

1. Higher number of points obtained in the matches played among the teams in question;
2. Superior goal difference in matches played among the teams in question;
3. Higher number of goals scored in the matches played among the teams in question;
4. Higher number of goals scored away from home in the matches played among the teams in question;
5. etc... (continues to 12 criteria)

In your first scenario we'd have at least 7 points and that seems to be the threshold number. We'd then edge out Albania (if they beat Israel, so also 7 points) on head to head.

In your second scenario, that sounds as if all teams would be on 6 point, so wouldn't it depend on the relative goal differences between all 3 teams?

I think so, yes.  If we all end up on 6 points then we will all have lost one and won one against each other so it would just come down to GD between us all. 

We have a superior GD at the moment but that could soon change. Let’s just get at least a point in Albania and beat Israel and that will do. 

[Barney Rubble]

Albania will do us out there.

Folk should recognise that they had an absolute howler at Hampden last month. They will not be that poor on their own patch.

[Orraloon]

6 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

Albania will do us out there.

Folk should recognise that they had an absolute howler at Hampden last month. They will not be that poor on their own patch.

Agreed. A point would be a great result for us. 

[Orraloon]

8 hours ago, exile said:

Ah you're right. my search went straight to 'league' rankings not 'group' rankings

The group ranking system appears to be

1. Higher number of points obtained in the matches played among the teams in question;
2. Superior goal difference in matches played among the teams in question;
3. Higher number of goals scored in the matches played among the teams in question;
4. Higher number of goals scored away from home in the matches played among the teams in question;
5. etc... (continues to 12 criteria)

In your first scenario we'd have at least 7 points and that seems to be the threshold number. We'd then edge out Albania (if they beat Israel, so also 7 points) on head to head.

In your second scenario, that sounds as if all teams would be on 6 points, so wouldn't it depend on the relative goal differences between all 3 teams?

I'm pretty sure that is correct, which is why it was very important that we didn't concede another goal on Thursday. 

[DaveyDenoon]

5 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

Albania will do us out there.

Folk should recognise that they had an absolute howler at Hampden last month. They will not be that poor on their own patch.

Indeed

We were honking in the first half against Albania and slightly better second half.

If Albania weren’t even more honking than us (some say the worst visitors at Hampden in decades and it’s hard to argue) then we’d have struggled to win. Any half decent team would have beaten us that night.

I can’t see them being anywhere near as bad at home next month meaning we need to be far better than we were last time we played them. Given what I’ve seen over the past twelve months I don't think McLeish is capable of getting anywhere near the level of performance we are likely to need out of the players.

We’ll be doing very well to get a draw over there as things stand.

[exile]

5 hours ago, Orraloon said:

I'm pretty sure that is correct, which is why it was very important that we didn't concede another goal on Thursday. 

Yes, and for anyone of a nervous disposition out there, the prospect of all three teams on six points must be excruciating - goal difference could decide promotion and relegation simultaneously. Being involved in the last game must give a slight advantage, to know what to aim for. 

And not only goal difference but goals scored away from home (criterion 4) - that Mulgrew penalty is so far the only away goal by anyone in three games.

[romanticscot]

The positives are - we have two games left, whereas the other two only have one each.  Albania away will be a tricky affair, and I was reading aslong as we don't lose more than 2 nil we will go into the last game knowing we are playing at home needing a win.  

I do believe despite being negative about our tactics that we will be play like we did in the first half against Portugal who even at their 3rd string team will be more formidable at the Israeli's and Albania and we will play more settled from now on.

Along as we dont have any crucial players out injured then we have genuinely two games that at least the last one most important since we drew with Slovenia a year ago that will be exciting.

I think the other positives is the pressure now, and this is just for a play off, it should in theory be good mentally for our younger players to play under pressure.  This does the bring the best out of many a man.

Now for the negatives -  I said this on another thread, in 8 matches and 16 halves of football, our form is wildly random, we have not put three consecutive halves of decent football together.  McLeish did not choose the fixtures but the manner of performances have been some of the worst ever - and no apparent effort from McLeish to read a game, see what is failing and try something.

If we dont top this group, is cost us a play off, a 3rd seed in the proper euro qualification and promotion to league B.  League B may seem neutral however in theory we should have better opposition and higher gates, plus we would have lost a 7 figure sum of money for winning the group.  All ingredients mean unfortunately the SFA need to sack the guy, but in honesty he should be resigning leaving us between November and March to find our next man and I would expect that man t be Davie Moyes - another man trying ot rebuild his reputation but atleast we far more recent experience than McLeish before he got the job. 

 

 

 

[bonny78]

I think I ll just wait for the 2nd December draw to asses our chances. 

[hannibal smith]

Looking ahead to the nations league play offs should we win the group and not qualify through the normal route, it appears according to Wikipedia (I know) that the draw will take place in November 2019 for the games in March 2019 and of the 4 teams in the hat the two with the best record get to play their semi final at home and there will be a toss of the coin following the semi final draw to decide which semi finalist will play at home in the final. 

 

[Texas Pete]

9 hours ago, romanticscot said:

The positives are - we have two games left, whereas the other two only have one each.  Albania away will be a tricky affair, and I was reading aslong as we don't lose more than 2 nil we will go into the last game knowing we are playing at home needing a win.  

I do believe despite being negative about our tactics that we will be play like we did in the first half against Portugal who even at their 3rd string team will be more formidable at the Israeli's and Albania and we will play more settled from now on.

Along as we dont have any crucial players out injured then we have genuinely two games that at least the last one most important since we drew with Slovenia a year ago that will be exciting.

I think the other positives is the pressure now, and this is just for a play off, it should in theory be good mentally for our younger players to play under pressure.  This does the bring the best out of many a man.

Now for the negatives -  I said this on another thread, in 8 matches and 16 halves of football, our form is wildly random, we have not put three consecutive halves of decent football together.  McLeish did not choose the fixtures but the manner of performances have been some of the worst ever - and no apparent effort from McLeish to read a game, see what is failing and try something.

If we dont top this group, is cost us a play off, a 3rd seed in the proper euro qualification and promotion to league B.  League B may seem neutral however in theory we should have better opposition and higher gates, plus we would have lost a 7 figure sum of money for winning the group.  All ingredients mean unfortunately the SFA need to sack the guy, but in honesty he should be resigning leaving us between November and March to find our next man and I would expect that man t be Davie Moyes - another man trying ot rebuild his reputation but atleast we far more recent experience than McLeish before he got the job. 

 

 

 

As long as we don’t lose heavily in Albania and pump Israel at home we will win the group. Easier said than done but I’ll be surprised if we don’t do that.  Well, maybe not pump Israel but I fancy us to beat them. 

Problem is, even if we do win the group on goal difference we will probably have an away tie in the playoffs which I can’t see us winning, particularly if we can’t beat Albania away. 

We should still be looking to beat Albania away to try and secure a home playoff. I doubt a draw and a victory against Israel would do it although at least we wouldn’t need to worry about GD I suppose.

If we do get a playoff then McLeish will actually have been a success and must be given the chance to continue.