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John Fleck


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Guest ElChris04

Is John Fleck international level class? Of course he is. I’ve watched him a few times this season and he’s been on another level. He’s destined for the premier league. He’s a class above any midfielder in the championship, I’ve got a mate who’s a Sheffield fan and he would tell you just how good he is. Can’t believe it’s taking this long and he still hasn’t been called up but then again we are talking about useless mcleish here. Hope the reports are true and he is in the team for the Israel match would be a great decision. There really isn’t anyone more deserving off a call up right now than him, reminds me off the Callum McGregor situation when Strachan was in charge 

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1 hour ago, ONeils4oyarder said:

Haha...shows how much attention I pay.

 

When do they leave?

Today at 2pm.

Can't comment on how easy or difficult it would be to sort his entry into Albania as I don't have a clue. Surely though for the sfa it would be easy easy as a name change to get him on the flight? Just change McGinn for Fleck and that's it 🤣

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33 minutes ago, ElChris04 said:

Is John Fleck international level class? Of course he is. I’ve watched him a few times this season and he’s been on another level. He’s destined for the premier league. He’s a class above any midfielder in the championship, I’ve got a mate who’s a Sheffield fan and he would tell you just how good he is. Can’t believe it’s taking this long and he still hasn’t been called up but then again we are talking about useless mcleish here. Hope the reports are true and he is in the team for the Israel match would be a great decision. There really isn’t anyone more deserving off a call up right now than him, reminds me off the Callum McGregor situation when Strachan was in charge 

I think you're massively overstating Fleck's influence there tbh. Every Sheffield United fan I've come across would tell you that Norwood is the difference in their midfield and is the key to their season so far. If you watched the Sheffield derby the other day, then you'd have seen it reflected pretty clearly there. Fleck quietly got on with the job and did ok. Everything impressive and incisive came from Norwood. So Fleck's not even a class above the midfielders at his own club, let alone the rest of the league.

Is he better than Grealish? no. Is he better than Hernandez? no. Leitner? no. Joe Allen? no. Jota? no. Is he playing better than 8 goal callum robinson? no. How about 8 goal Che Adams? nope. You can easily make the case for McGinn.. 2 goals, 4 assists to Flecks 1 and 1. I could go on, but i'm sure everyone's already bored and gets the point.

Fleck hasn't had a call because center mid has generally been one of the stronger areas of the side for us. I doubt anyone would drop Armstrong, Cairney or McGregor for him. Probably not McGinn either. Most would agree that Christie deserves a call, having not done too bad in the few outings he's had and his recent form is great both domestically and internationally. Then add in that we basically need to have 2 defensive mids in the squad, and that puts Fleck at best 7th in line for a call, probably 8th.. at best.

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13 minutes ago, andyD said:

I think you're massively overstating Fleck's influence there tbh. Every Sheffield United fan I've come across would tell you that Norwood is the difference in their midfield and is the key to their season so far. If you watched the Sheffield derby the other day, then you'd have seen it reflected pretty clearly there. Fleck quietly got on with the job and did ok. Everything impressive and incisive came from Norwood. So Fleck's not even a class above the midfielders at his own club, let alone the rest of the league.

Is he better than Grealish? no. Is he better than Hernandez? no. Leitner? no. Joe Allen? no. Jota? no. Is he playing better than 8 goal callum robinson? no. How about 8 goal Che Adams? nope. You can easily make the case for McGinn.. 2 goals, 4 assists to Flecks 1 and 1. I could go on, but i'm sure everyone's already bored and gets the point.

Fleck hasn't had a call because center mid has generally been one of the stronger areas of the side for us. I doubt anyone would drop Armstrong, Cairney or McGregor for him. Probably not McGinn either. Most would agree that Christie deserves a call, having not done too bad in the few outings he's had and his recent form is great both domestically and internationally. Then add in that we basically need to have 2 defensive mids in the squad, and that puts Fleck at best 7th in line for a call, probably 8th.. at best.

Fleck is a defensive Mid

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4 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

Fleck is a defensive Mid

Sorry, but that makes me think you've not watched Sheffield United this season. They don't have a defensive mid. Their entire system is build around being dynamic and players swapping and moving. The midfield 3 of Duffy, Norwood and Fleck all go forward and back, wide and narrow. From what I've seen of them Fleck tends to stay in a fairly neutral area, looking to move the ball laterally. Norwood drops deeper to do defensive work, distribute with long balls, and Duffy makes runs ahead a lot of the time. But they're a very fluid 3, who seems to have a good understanding.

Go back 2 season to when Fleck was probably performing better than he is now, and he had Coutts in along side him who was the defensive midfielder. Fleck is somewhat akin to Bannan in that he sometimes plays deeper, but he's not a defenisve mid, in no world would you want either of them to be the shield ahead of your back 4 and they're not fighting for squad spots with the likes of McDonald, Shinnie or McTominay.

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John Fleck has been added to the Scotland squad for the final UEFA Nations League match of 2018, which will see Alex McLeish’s side take on Israel at Hampden Park this Tuesday.

Fleck, 27, will link up with the squad upon their return from Albania to bolster the team’s midfield options, following the injury to John McGinn earlier this week.

The Glasgow native has earned his first call-up to the senior international setup, following a series of impressive performances for Sheffield United this season.

“We’re pleased to bring John into the squad following John McGinn’s injury,” said Scotland assistant coach James McFadden.

“He has been in fine form for a successful Sheffield United side this season, and his inclusion in the squad will offer us a fresh option against Israel.

“The coaching staff have settled on the play to play Albania and have been preparing on that basis all week. We discussed whether to bring John in to the squad to travel to Albania, but decided it would be best for him to rest at home and join up with the squad fresh on Sunday.

“Rather than have John travel from Sheffield to Edinburgh, on to Albania and back to Glasgow in the space of 48 hours, without him having the opportunity to train with the team, it is better for him to join up with us on Sunday and be physically and mentally prepared to focus on our match against Israel on Tuesday.”

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I think you are a bit guilty of downplaying Fleck andyD.  Norwood has made a big impact at SUFC because he filled a yawning gap in the side that was critical to the way we play that occurred when Coutts had his leg broken a year ago.  Wilder signed 3 midfielders last Jan none of whom were good enough for the role and our performance level dropped accordingly in the 2nd half of last season.  Norwood is quite a similar player to Coutts and therefore signing him in the summer has made it possible for us to start performing at the level we were doing a year ago and hence why people say he's made such an impact. (btw Coutts is now back playing and my personal view is that he is a tad better all round than Norwood and may well start instead of him when he gets back up to full match fitness, if he can get back to the levels he was at  Scotland could do a lot worse than calling him up as well).  

However, in my view Fleck is more important to the team than either of them.  He's the glue that holds our team together, if you put a list of the desirable characteristics you'd want in a midfielder he's pretty good at all of them, I grant you he's not a De Bruyne, He hasn't got the skill and pace of a Mahrez but he's a pretty good approximation for a one level down Gundogan.  Add to this he is also that comparative rarity a left footer and certainly that gives us balance.

You put in a bit of a mix of characters that you claim are way better than him but for what it's worth Grealish has a sublime touch and when he drifts past players it's a thing of beauty but he's also a mardy, sulky, diving whinger who in the 5 matches I've seen him live in has yet to put a shift in.  Hernandez, Jota, Adams are predominantly wingers/second strikers and not really comparable. Allen, Leitner clearly decent players but having seen both this season play against us I wouldn't take either of them above Fleck although I admit I might be a bit biased.  Oh and trust me  Fleck is a better player now than he was 2 seasons ago when he was able to lord it against League 1 players without having to be outstanding.

Edited by Paulus
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1 hour ago, Paulus said:

I think you are a bit guilty of downplaying Fleck andyD.  Norwood has made a big impact at SUFC because he filled a yawning gap in the side that was critical to the way we play that occurred when Coutts had his leg broken a year ago.  Wilder signed 3 midfielders last Jan none of whom were good enough for the role and our performance level dropped accordingly in the 2nd half of last season.  Norwood is quite a similar player to Coutts and therefore signing him in the summer has made it possible for us to start performing at the level we were doing a year ago and hence why people say he's made such an impact. (btw Coutts is now back playing and my personal view is that he is a tad better all round than Norwood and may well start instead of him when he gets back up to full match fitness, if he can get back to the levels he was at  Scotland could do a lot worse than calling him up as well).   

However, in my view Fleck is more important to the team than either of them.  He's the glue that holds our team together, if you put a list of the desirable characteristics you'd want in a midfielder he's pretty good at all of them, I grant you he's not a De Bruyne, He hasn't got the skill and pace of a Mahrez but he's a pretty good approximation for a one level down Gundogan.  Add to this he is also that comparative rarity a left footer and certainly that gives us balance.

You put in a bit of a mix of characters that you claim are way better than him but for what it's worth Grealish has a sublime touch and when he drifts past players it's a thing of beauty but he's also a mardy, sulky, diving whinger who in the 5 matches I've seen him live in has yet to put a shift in.  Hernandez, Jota, Adams are predominantly wingers/second strikers and not really comparable. Allen, Leitner clearly decent players but having seen both this season play against us I wouldn't take either of them above Fleck although I admit I might be a bit biased.  Oh and trust me  Fleck is a better player now than he was 2 seasons ago when he was able to lord it against League 1 players without having to be outstanding.

Norwood seems immensely better than Coutts ever was. For sure, Coutts injury and the subsequent tumble down the table shows how important he was, but Coutts can't strike a ball like Norwood does, he doesn't have the range of passing. Coutts has been back available for 2 and a half months and has only started 1 game in that time, and it was along side Fleck and Norwood.

The assortment of midfielders was due to Chris saying "any midfielder". It as more me poking fun at his hyperbole. You wouldn't play Adams in the same position as Fleck, for sure.

Got 2 questions on Fleck then, since you actually follow United.

1) What happened to the guy who got 17 assists in that season 2 years ago? Stepped p to the championship and dropped to 8. Now he's 1/3rd of the way thru the season and has 1. Is it just a change in system that means he's passing to overloading players who are then getting the assists? Norwood and Duffy have a few more, so is Fleck the pass before the assist now? Trying to understand why he's playing better but his numbers have disappeared.

2) Why has no one come in for him? Certainly scouts have been at the lane a fair bit, hence Brooks move. But it seems like Fleck's not really been on anyones radar as far as I can tell from press. If he's as good as is being suggested, then why's he still at the blades?

I will give Fleck credit tho. He left Rangers, started at the bottom and worked his way up. Wasn't always easy, I remember seeing him for Coventry against Leyton Orient a few years back and he was absolutely honking. Among the worst players on the pitch, nothing worked for him at all. But clearly he's got his head right and worked hard and is not in a much better place playing to a much better standard. So well done to the man.

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Ok sorry he is not quite a defensive midfielder such as n golo Kante more a deep lying playmaker such as an ilkay gundogan or xabi Alonso was. Still a sitting midfielder in that mould though not an attacking midfielder. He is a number 8 not a 10 such as mesut ozil which is how I would describe an attacking midfielder these days. Of course he is not at the level of any of these players unfortunately but decent none the less

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10 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

Ok sorry he is not quite a defensive midfielder such as n golo Kante more a deep lying playmaker such as an ilkay gundogan or xabi Alonso was. Still a sitting midfielder in that mould though not an attacking midfielder. He is a number 8 not a 10 such as mesut ozil which is how I would describe an attacking midfielder these days. Of course he is not at the level of any of these players unfortunately but decent none the less

Aye, hes a conundrum. Not quite a Maradona and doesn't really resemble a Cristiano Ronaldo. You could argue that he doesn't play in their positions right enough. More of a Lothar Matthaus or a Paul Lambert really, but not quite as good. Probably more similar to a Jean Tigana or a Ronald De Boer, but maybe not quite as good. Of course he is not at the level of a Gary Dicker or an Alan Power unfortunately but decent nonetheless.

Edited by killiefaetheferry
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2 hours ago, killiefaetheferry said:

Aye, hes a conundrum. Not quite a Maradona and doesn't really resemble a Cristiano Ronaldo. You could argue that he doesn't play in their positions right enough. More of a Lothar Matthaus or a Paul Lambert really, but not quite as good. Probably more similar to a Jean Tigana or a Ronald De Boer, but maybe not quite as good. Of course he is not at the level of a Gary Dicker or an Alan Power unfortunately but decent nonetheless.

And unfortunately your nae Kevin Bridges

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Coutts and Norwood aren't peas in a pod, I'd agree Norwood's vision to see a pass and his ability to drill a long ball is superior to Coutts' but my view is that Coutts is(was) superior in terms of close movement and short passes he's also slightly better defensively, Norwood is quite a slight player physically and can get brushed aside in the heat of the battle.  Coutts isn't starting because he's still not back at the levels he was before the leg break, You see it in his general athleticism and less fluent movement I very much hope he can get back there but there is always a doubt after a long term serious injury.

Re Fleck's performance levels, I'm guessing you're a man for the stats/analysis side of the game but I'm not convinced it tells you the whole truth.  There has been a change in the way we've played over the last year or so.  In L1 we developed into a team that was so superior to most of the opposition that we became incredibly attack focused.  If the opposition caught us on the break we were confident we would still outscore them.  We took this into the Championship last season but against better players and managers we have gradually become more pragmatic and not as open as we were and this has impacted probably more on Fleck's role than anyone else's. His average position has moved back a few yards and the intricate stuff in and around the box is more likely to see Duffy, McGoldrick and the wing backs involved.

Why's no one come in for him?  I fear that sooner or later someone might but it's also the case that he's being very well managed, He knows he has the managers total trust, he's the first name on the team sheet, he's been given improved terms twice in the three years he's been with us, he's still got a long contract in front of him.  Overrated I know but he's bought into the club there is a real buzz around the place, he's playing in front of 25,000+ week in week  out; you genuinely get the feeling the players are happy to be here and I guess finally who's going to come in for him?  I think he's unlikely to move to another championship team unless they offer stupid money (always possible) For various reasons I think it unlikely he'll go to either Celtic or Rangers and I doubt anyone else in Scotland would be able to put a deal together for him.  The biggest danger to us is a lower level EPL side in much the same way as we lost Brooks to the mighty Bournemouth but Fleck isn't Brooks.  The stupid money available in the EPL allowed Bournemouth to take a punt on Brooks, they bought potential knowing that if he developed over the next couple of years as he has the raw ability to do they'll have the possibility of flogging him onto a top EPL side for £80-£100 Million.  Because of his age/playing career etc. that isn't going to happen to Fleck he'll get bought as cover/squad player for someone like Newcastle if he goes anywhere.

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Guest ElChris04
On 11/16/2018 at 11:01 AM, andyD said:

I think you're massively overstating Fleck's influence there tbh. Every Sheffield United fan I've come across would tell you that Norwood is the difference in their midfield and is the key to their season so far. If you watched the Sheffield derby the other day, then you'd have seen it reflected pretty clearly there. Fleck quietly got on with the job and did ok. Everything impressive and incisive came from Norwood. So Fleck's not even a class above the midfielders at his own club, let alone the rest of the league.

Is he better than Grealish? no. Is he better than Hernandez? no. Leitner? no. Joe Allen? no. Jota? no. Is he playing better than 8 goal callum robinson? no. How about 8 goal Che Adams? nope. You can easily make the case for McGinn.. 2 goals, 4 assists to Flecks 1 and 1. I could go on, but i'm sure everyone's already bored and gets the point.

Fleck hasn't had a call because center mid has generally been one of the stronger areas of the side for us. I doubt anyone would drop Armstrong, Cairney or McGregor for him. Probably not McGinn either. Most would agree that Christie deserves a call, having not done too bad in the few outings he's had and his recent form is great both domestically and internationally. Then add in that we basically need to have 2 defensive mids in the squad, and that puts Fleck at best 7th in line for a call, probably 8th.. at best.

Nope I’m not overrating him. He’s easily the best in his position at what he does. Yes Norwood has been getting the prase this season but his consistency over the last 2 season has been key where as Norwood was hit and miss for fullham.. also I do believe he’s better than the likes off grealish and Robinson, Allen, Leitner, Hernandez. Adams shouldn’t really be up for discussion since he’s a completely different player but player wise, yes I confidently believe he’s better than him. Again he deserves his call up and is more quality available to us on the bench. 

Edited by ElChris04
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On 11/17/2018 at 11:30 PM, ElChris04 said:

Nope I’m not overrating him. He’s easily the best in his position at what he does. Yes Norwood has been getting the prase this season but his consistency over the last 2 season has been key where as Norwood was hit and miss for fullham.. also I do believe he’s better than the likes off grealish and Robinson, Allen, Leitner, Hernandez. Adams shouldn’t really be up for discussion since he’s a completely different player but player wise, yes I confidently believe he’s better than him. Again he deserves his call up and is more quality available to us on the bench. 

Question is, should he be in the squad over Armstrong, McDonald, McGinn McDonald or McTominay. For me he's in the 2nd tier of players along with Shinnie and Bannan. Ahead of the likes of Jack, Coutts and McLean.

He's had one season as a decent midfielder at a mid-table championship club. Prior to that he was scrubbing around in League One. Given the other options we have, it really doesn't feel like we need to be clamouring for him to be in the squad, especially since he's 27.  Sure, Paul Hartley was a late bloomer too (and for me one of out key players for a few years), but we have enough better options to well cover the position right now. Fleck's an option, if midfield has a lot of call-offs, but he hardly seems like revolutionary quality that'd be a game changer for us.

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1 hour ago, andyD said:

Question is, should he be in the squad over Armstrong, McDonald, McGinn McDonald or McTominay. For me he's in the 2nd tier of players along with Shinnie and Bannan. Ahead of the likes of Jack, Coutts and McLean.

He's had one season as a decent midfielder at a mid-table championship club. Prior to that he was scrubbing around in League One. Given the other options we have, it really doesn't feel like we need to be clamouring for him to be in the squad, especially since he's 27.  Sure, Paul Hartley was a late bloomer too (and for me one of out key players for a few years), but we have enough better options to well cover the position right now. Fleck's an option, if midfield has a lot of call-offs, but he hardly seems like revolutionary quality that'd be a game changer for us.

McDonald is maybe a solid option for someone to bring off the bench if we need more defense in midfield, but I really don't think we should call him up twice for one squad...

PS: He's also 30 and doesn't get a start for the worst team in the EPL.

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2 hours ago, mrniaboc said:

PS: He's also 30 and doesn't get a start for the worst team in the EPL.

Bit of myth-busting to do there.

He's started 7 of 12, and was suspended for one of them, so really 7 of 11.
and he was captain for 5 of those 7.

And yeah, one of the McDonalds should be a McGregor ;)

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1 hour ago, andyD said:

Bit of myth-busting to do there.

He's started 7 of 12, and was suspended for one of them, so really 7 of 11.
and he was captain for 5 of those 7.

And yeah, one of the McDonalds should be a McGregor ;)

Reasonable myth busting, but he still isn't guaranteed a start and Fulham are not really EPL quality at the moment. Since you invoked Fleck's club level and age as arguments against him I thought it was worth comparing to McDonald. I don't really have any strong feelings about Fleck, but if he were to replace McDonald in a squad I wouldn't be miffed in the slightest. The rest of the names you mentioned are a different story.

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AndyD, Paulus and ElChris04.  Can I just say thank you for the level of analysis that you brought to the board in the case of John Fleck, it's rare to get such in-depth analysis.  I do think he's done well since leaving Rangers, got his head down and his been a good Championship and L1 player for several seasons.

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