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John Fleck


er yir macaroon

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2 minutes ago, aaid said:

Stephen Fletcher's a great example of "the less you play, the better you get", he was most highly rated for Scotland when he fell out with Levein.  A huge benefit of not playing meaning people couldn't see how average he really was. A promising start at Hibs, then did well when he went to Burnley.  Since then it's been largely disappointing.  Another thing about Fletcher is that his goal scoring record isn't really that good for a striker, I'm guessing it's 1 in 3 or 1 in 4, what makes it worse though is that he's the sort of striker that scores in streaks, so he'll get 4 in 6 and then not score for 12 games.  That means he really doesn't score that often, which for a striker isn't really what you want.

 

Agree, his record at club level has never been as great as people think, but its hyped up by the fact after his fall out with Levein he went on a scoring run of 6 or 7 games for Burnley, meanwhile Kenny Miller had went something like 2 years without scoring for Scotland.

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2 hours ago, wanderer said:

Agree, his record at club level has never been as great as people think, but its hyped up by the fact after his fall out with Levein he went on a scoring run of 6 or 7 games for Burnley, meanwhile Kenny Miller had went something like 2 years without scoring for Scotland.

His record for Scotland is even worse.  It's 9 in 31 or more realistically 3 in 29 when you take out the two hat tricks against Gibraltar. 

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1 hour ago, bazmidd said:

So who do we actually have coming through then? We literally don't seem to have a decent striker coming through anywhere just now

At the moment Griffiths is only 27, so if stays fit, you would imagine he is good for at least another 5 years (2/3 campaigns?), and with McBurnie being 22, you would imagine he will be next in line (personally I still feel the jury is still out on him, but main thing is if he can get a full season of first team action with Swansea in the Championship, then that will see us starting to have some real competition up front).

As with McBurnie, same applies for Oli Burke, and hopefully now he is fully fit again, a season in the Championship will do him a lot of good.

Beyond that, its pretty slim pickings.... Jack Harper is pretty much at make or break point just now (Malaga's Middle East owners seem to have grown tired of the club, and they have made no signings of note, and seem to have just promoted the B team squad members to the first team squad next season), same with Craig Wighton (if he can stay fit!).

At moment its not a major concern, but major problem is we do have some good 20-22 year old strikers, but they just need first team action at club level.

Been talk for a while that Eck has his sights on getting Che Adams and Sam Gallagher to switch to us (again, both strikers in that 20-22 age group)

Edited by wanderer
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11 minutes ago, wanderer said:

At the moment Griffiths is only 27, so if stays fit, you would imagine he is good for at least another 5 years (2/3 campaigns?), and with McBurnie being 22, you would imagine he will be next in line (personally I still feel the jury is still out on him, but main thing is if he can get a full season of first team action with Swansea in the Championship, then that will see us starting to have some real competition up front).

As with McBurnie, same applies for Oli Burke, and hopefully now he is fully fit again, a season in the Championship will do him a lot of good.

Beyond that, its pretty slim pickings.... Jack Harper is pretty much at make or break point just now (Malaga's Middle East owners seem to have grown tired of the club, and they have made no signings of note, and seem to have just promoted the B team squad members to the first team squad next season), same with Craig Wighton (if he can stay fit!).

At moment its not a major concern, but major problem is we do have some good 20-22 year old strikers, but they just need first team action at club level.

Been talk for a while that Eck has his sights on getting Che Adams and Sam Gallagher to switch to us (again, both strikers in that 20-22 age group)

Surprised you're so quick to write Islam Feruz off, he might yet come good.

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29 minutes ago, wanderer said:

At the moment Griffiths is only 27, so if stays fit, you would imagine he is good for at least another 5 years (2/3 campaigns?), and with McBurnie being 22, you would imagine he will be next in line (personally I still feel the jury is still out on him, but main thing is if he can get a full season of first team action with Swansea in the Championship, then that will see us starting to have some real competition up front).

As with McBurnie, same applies for Oli Burke, and hopefully now he is fully fit again, a season in the Championship will do him a lot of good.

Beyond that, its pretty slim pickings.... Jack Harper is pretty much at make or break point just now (Malaga's Middle East owners seem to have grown tired of the club, and they have made no signings of note, and seem to have just promoted the B team squad members to the first team squad next season), same with Craig Wighton (if he can stay fit!).

At moment its not a major concern, but major problem is we do have some good 20-22 year old strikers, but they just need first team action at club level.

Been talk for a while that Eck has his sights on getting Che Adams and Sam Gallagher to switch to us (again, both strikers in that 20-22 age group)

You omitted Fraser Hornby. He’ll be in the full squad the season after next.

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1 minute ago, er yir macaroon said:

You omitted Fraser Hornby. He’ll be in the full squad the season after next.

Yeah, he is certainly further down the list, and does look a genuinely exciting player, but at 18 still a big ask at the moment (how many times have we seen this where a 17/18 year old makes some headlines at a English club, then by 21 shows up at Shrewsbury Town or something similar?).

Imagine he will either be loaned out next season or in Everton U23 squad, with maybe a sub appearance here and there, but he is certainly at one of the Premier Leagues better clubs for giving youth a chance.

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4 hours ago, wanderer said:

Been talk for a while that Eck has his sights on getting Che Adams and Sam Gallagher to switch to us (again, both strikers in that 20-22 age group)

I don't know Che Adams. Sam Gallagher played for Scotland at youth level so can see that but what are Adams' links to Scotland?

One player not mentioned above is Phillips. Not saying he's a superstar but he's done well recently and I've changed my opinions. So that's Griffiths, Phillips, and McBurnie. Ok i guess. Think Hornby is too young to be considered yet (but it doesn't stop me praying) 

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1 minute ago, SkyBlueScot said:

I don't know Che Adams. Sam Gallagher played for Scotland at youth level so can see that but what are Adams' links to Scotland?

One player not mentioned above is Phillips. Not saying he's a superstar but he's done well recently and I've changed my opinions. So that's Griffiths, Phillips, and McBurnie. Ok i guess. Think Hornby is too young to be considered yet (but it doesn't stop me praying) 

Grandparent from Scotland apparently.

Malky McKay has had his eye on getting him into the system for a while now (at U21 level), and apparently him, and later Eck, have met with him over the last year about a switch.

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On 8/1/2018 at 4:49 PM, aaid said:

Stephen Fletcher's a great example of "the less you play, the better you get", he was most highly rated for Scotland when he fell out with Levein.  A huge benefit of not playing meaning people couldn't see how average he really was. A promising start at Hibs, then did well when he went to Burnley.  Since then it's been largely disappointing.  Another thing about Fletcher is that his goal scoring record isn't really that good for a striker, I'm guessing it's 1 in 3 or 1 in 4, what makes it worse though is that he's the sort of striker that scores in streaks, so he'll get 4 in 6 and then not score for 12 games.  That means he really doesn't score that often, which for a striker isn't really what you want.

 

Not sure on that.

If you look at all the years he was ignored by Levein between 2009-12 he did score a fair amount of goals at prem level.

In 2009-10 he scored 8 premier league goals.

10-11- he scored 10 premier league goals in his first season at Wolves.

11-12, 12 premier league goals.

12-13- he moved to Sunderland and had a brilliant start, 5 goals in his first 4 games. Overall 11 for the season.

So in 4 seasons where due to a fall out he wasn't getting capped by Scotland he scored 41 premier league goals in probably about 110 premier league games. In this era Kenny Miller remained the lone striker upfront.

Then Levein was sacked in November 2012 and he started getting called again under Strachan.

In 13-14 he only scored 3 premier league goals. Following season only 5. Since then he's scored a few but been injured and generally lost that sharpness he had.

If he get scoring again no issue with being a squad option due to the limited options upfront but I see his international career as massive missed opportunity. He played for Scotland v Sweden in August 2010 and then didn't get another call up until October 2012 which of course co-incided with the best scoring run of his career.

Edited by Tartan Chris
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On 7/31/2018 at 10:17 PM, ceudmilefailte said:

No idea why, but I have high hopes for McBurnie.  

McBurnie certainly has that poacher instinct in him and would imagine he's a key player for Swansea now with his goal record at Barnsley last season.

Time will tell if his all round game is good enough for international football. On the friendlies he needs a bit more work to be a major threat.

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On 8/1/2018 at 4:55 PM, wanderer said:

Agree, his record at club level has never been as great as people think, but its hyped up by the fact after his fall out with Levein he went on a scoring run of 6 or 7 games for Burnley, meanwhile Kenny Miller had went something like 2 years without scoring for Scotland.

His main streak was at Sunderland as I've mentioned above but he also hit double figures in each of his two years at Wolves. When you think very few players score 20 league goals now in premier league I'd say him averaging 10-11 goals for relegation teams was very good return. When he was at Wolves his strike partner Kevin Doyle was averaging 5 a season and remained a regular starter for ROI. They qualified for euro 2012.

Something to think about when Levein refused to pick an actual striker in Prague.

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6 minutes ago, Tartan Chris said:

Not sure on that.

If you look at all the years he was ignored by Levein between 2009-12 he did score a fair amount of goals at prem level.

In 2009-10 he scored 8 premier league goals.

10-11- he scored 10 premier league goals in his first season at Wolves.

11-12, 12 premier league goals.

12-13- he moved to Sunderland and had a brilliant start, 5 goals in his first 4 games. Overall 11 for the season.

So in 4 seasons where due to a fall out he wasn't getting capped by Scotland he scored 41 premier league goals in probably about 110 premier league games. In this era Kenny Miller remained the lone striker upfront.

Then Levein was sacked in November 2012 and he started getting called again under Strachan.

In 13-14 he only scored 3 premier league goals. Following season only 5. Since then he's scored a few but been injured and generally lost that sharpness he had.

If he get scoring again no issue with being a squad option due to the limited options upfront but I see his international career as massive missed opportunity. He played for Scotland v Sweden in August 2010 and then didn't get another call up until October 2012 which of course co-incided with the best scoring run of his career.

Career average of just under 1 in 4 for a striker is pish.   Add to that the fact when he does score it tends to be in streaks and you get a striker that hardly scores, which is a bit of a problem  

I get that our options up front are limited but it amazes me that people think players like Fletcher and Rhodes are suddenly going to come good when all the evidence suggests that they won't. 

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5 minutes ago, Tartan Chris said:

His main streak was at Sunderland as I've mentioned above but he also hit double figures in each of his two years at Wolves. When you think very few players score 20 league goals now in premier league I'd say him averaging 10-11 goals for relegation teams was very good return. When he was at Wolves his strike partner Kevin Doyle was averaging 5 a season and remained a regular starter for ROI. They qualified for euro 2012.

Two words.  Robbie Keane. 

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Yes last few years he's lost his way and stopped scoring and been injured. Stopped scoring at Sunderland, only scored one at Marseille in his loan there and scored a few at Sheff Weds but it's not premier league.

My point was between 2009-12 his record was much better than 1 in 4 playing for struggling teams in one of the best leagues in world football. Frustrating for me Levein decided to have a personality clash with him at that time and stopped calling him up.

When I look at decline of Scotland national team in last 10 years I despair at Burley and Levein being appointed. In fairness I rated Burley's club achievements but clear he couldn't handle the egos and Levein was just out of his depth as some of his bizarre decisions showed.

Scotland had a nice thing going from 2005 to 2007 under Walter Smith and McLeish. Solid core of players who were tough to break down and could nick a goal at the other end. It's a formula that has got Northern and ROI to recent tournaments with similar set of players.

Shame 5 years was wasted appointing Burley and particularly Levein who alienated the best available Scottish striker at the time.

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6 minutes ago, aaid said:

Two words.  Robbie Keane. 

Past his best after 2010 although of course still popped up in qualification with crucial goals. Doyle still started majority of games alongside him as his style fitted the Trapattoni system even if he scored few goals at club level or indeed for Ireland.

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21 minutes ago, Tartan Chris said:

Yes last few years he's lost his way and stopped scoring and been injured. Stopped scoring at Sunderland, only scored one at Marseille in his loan there and scored a few at Sheff Weds but it's not premier league.

My point was between 2009-12 his record was much better than 1 in 4 playing for struggling teams in one of the best leagues in world football. Frustrating for me Levein decided to have a personality clash with him at that time and stopped calling him up.

He was 1 in 3 in that period which is better but not stellar.  As a comparison, in the same period Kenny Miller was 0.7 goals a game better.   36 goals in 109 games for Fletcher as opposed to 59 goals in 137 games for Miler. 

Any striker worth their salt should be looking at an average of 1 in 2. 

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The one young striker who I can't understand hasn't progressed as much as I'd hoped is Jack Aitchison as every time I have watched the younger Scotland sides play he is always the main man, always pops up with important goals and good performances, both him and Mikey Johnston were the best players for Celtic in the UEFA Youth League last season as well. Scored in his debut for Celtic at 16 but hasn't had much of a sniff since unfortunately. Still very young but Johnston seems to be in and around the first team now whereas Aitchison is no where to be seen

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33 minutes ago, bazmidd said:

The one young striker who I can't understand hasn't progressed as much as I'd hoped is Jack Aitchison as every time I have watched the younger Scotland sides play he is always the main man, always pops up with important goals and good performances, both him and Mikey Johnston were the best players for Celtic in the UEFA Youth League last season as well. Scored in his debut for Celtic at 16 but hasn't had much of a sniff since unfortunately. Still very young but Johnston seems to be in and around the first team now whereas Aitchison is no where to be seen

What chance does he have to progress when he never gets a game?

Needs a loan move. Griffiths just needs a move full stop. 

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11 hours ago, aaid said:

He was 1 in 3 in that period which is better but not stellar.  As a comparison, in the same period Kenny Miller was 0.7 goals a game better.   36 goals in 109 games for Fletcher as opposed to 59 goals in 137 games for Miler. 

Any striker worth their salt should be looking at an average of 1 in 2. 

Miller was scoring regularly in the SPL...just not for Scotland. A shame as he did do a good job in lone striker role at times but ultimately you need them still to chip in with goals as Griffiths is now doing. McFadden also started to drift out of contention around this time.

For the infamous Prague 2010 game Jamie Mackie, Chris Iwelumo, Steven Naismith, Kenny Miller and Maloney were the attacking players in the squad.

Craig-McKail Smith, Goodwillie and Chris Maguire all got call ups for the nations cup in 2011 so fair to say none of them were scoring at as high a level as Fletcher was around that time.

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6 hours ago, ProudScot said:

What chance does he have to progress when he never gets a game?

Needs a loan move. Griffiths just needs a move full stop. 

Agreed mate. Aitchison and Mikey Johnston should be ready for first team football now both should be playing somewhere every week. 

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Don't seem much room for Fleck at the moment tbh.

Setting aside his apparent poor performance against Swansea in the league opener, his form as a bit hit and miss in the 2nd half of last season (as was Sheffield United's). Calling him one of the best players in the championship is a bit silly. I could easily name you a dozen better players.. Butland, Chadli, Ndaiye, Joe Allen, Carvalho, Gayle, Clucas, Forestieri, Chester, Hourihane, Huddlestone, Grealish, Saiz, Etebo.. probably 2 or 3 dozen if i bothered to look thru the squads.

Heck, i just looked at Stoke's team and they have about a dozen players better than Fleck.. he's a decent championship player.. not a standout. anyway..

In terms of other players we have in our midfield..

Scott McTominay looks set to continue to be in the Man Utd matchday squad.
Kevin McDonald is stepping up to premier league, so we'll see him being properly tested every week.
Graeme Shinnie looks better each time i see him.
Ryan Jack was getting rave reviews from Gerrard.
James McArthur.. for all his failures, is still a premier league regular.
Stuart Armstrong is now in the premier league and will only improve because of it.
Tom Cairney the same.. no better stage for those two right now.
Callum McGregor.. one of the 1st names on the Celtic teamsheet at this point.

For me those are the 'big' ones.. Fleck falls into the 2nd category of.. 'if someones injured', along with:
McGinn, Bannan, McLean, Morrison, Fletcher, Coutts.

So it's a no to fleck from me. Not till we need him, and right now we have better players, in better form, playing at higher levels.

 

 

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4 hours ago, andyD said:

Don't seem much room for Fleck at the moment tbh.

Setting aside his apparent poor performance against Swansea in the league opener, his form as a bit hit and miss in the 2nd half of last season (as was Sheffield United's). Calling him one of the best players in the championship is a bit silly. I could easily name you a dozen better players.. Butland, Chadli, Ndaiye, Joe Allen, Carvalho, Gayle, Clucas, Forestieri, Chester, Hourihane, Huddlestone, Grealish, Saiz, Etebo.. probably 2 or 3 dozen if i bothered to look thru the squads.

Heck, i just looked at Stoke's team and they have about a dozen players better than Fleck.. he's a decent championship player.. not a standout. anyway..

In terms of other players we have in our midfield..

Scott McTominay looks set to continue to be in the Man Utd matchday squad.
Kevin McDonald is stepping up to premier league, so we'll see him being properly tested every week.
Graeme Shinnie looks better each time i see him.
Ryan Jack was getting rave reviews from Gerrard.
James McArthur.. for all his failures, is still a premier league regular.
Stuart Armstrong is now in the premier league and will only improve because of it.
Tom Cairney the same.. no better stage for those two right now.
Callum McGregor.. one of the 1st names on the Celtic teamsheet at this point.

For me those are the 'big' ones.. Fleck falls into the 2nd category of.. 'if someones injured', along with:
McGinn, Bannan, McLean, Morrison, Fletcher, Coutts.

So it's a no to fleck from me. Not till we need him, and right now we have better players, in better form, playing at higher levels.

 

 

Bloody heck.

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4 hours ago, andyD said:

Don't seem much room for Fleck at the moment tbh.

Setting aside his apparent poor performance against Swansea in the league opener, his form as a bit hit and miss in the 2nd half of last season (as was Sheffield United's). Calling him one of the best players in the championship is a bit silly. I could easily name you a dozen better players.. Butland, Chadli, Ndaiye, Joe Allen, Carvalho, Gayle, Clucas, Forestieri, Chester, Hourihane, Huddlestone, Grealish, Saiz, Etebo.. probably 2 or 3 dozen if i bothered to look thru the squads.

Heck, i just looked at Stoke's team and they have about a dozen players better than Fleck.. he's a decent championship player.. not a standout. anyway..

In terms of other players we have in our midfield..

Scott McTominay looks set to continue to be in the Man Utd matchday squad.
Kevin McDonald is stepping up to premier league, so we'll see him being properly tested every week.
Graeme Shinnie looks better each time i see him.
Ryan Jack was getting rave reviews from Gerrard.
James McArthur.. for all his failures, is still a premier league regular.
Stuart Armstrong is now in the premier league and will only improve because of it.
Tom Cairney the same.. no better stage for those two right now.
Callum McGregor.. one of the 1st names on the Celtic teamsheet at this point.

For me those are the 'big' ones.. Fleck falls into the 2nd category of.. 'if someones injured', along with:
McGinn, Bannan, McLean, Morrison, Fletcher, Coutts.

So it's a no to fleck from me. Not till we need him, and right now we have better players, in better form, playing at higher levels.

 

 

Jeez I thought you were talking sense until you came to and described Graeme Shinnie and Ryan Jack as two of our big players.... Neither are better players, in better form or playing at a higher level than John Fleck

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17 hours ago, bazmidd said:

Jeez I thought you were talking sense until you came to and described Graeme Shinnie and Ryan Jack as two of our big players.... Neither are better players, in better form or playing at a higher level than John Fleck 

to be fair.. 'big', not big.. ;)

I was meaning that they've been in squads and got caps recently. I suspect we'll see them again in the upcoming squad, as Shinnie was one of the few to do pretty well across the pond and Jack is one of only 3 Scottish players who look like being anywhere near the Rangers 11 for the forseeable future and Gerrard seems to see something in him.

For me those are the 8 players that McLeish is going to pick his central midfield calls from if everyone's fit. McGinn might make it in there, but his recent form for Scotland has been pretty terrible. Feels like he needs a bit more time to mature, or the move to Villa might put him up against more competitive midfielders and make him grow his game a bit more. We certainly saw against Peru and Mexico that his current game doesn't hold up when put in against a higher calibre of players.

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