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Scottish player transfers


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13 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

If Hickey signed for Bayern tomorrow (which I highly doubt) and played in their youth set up, he’d be a better player this time next year than if he stayed at Hearts on the Championship. 

He’s two footed which is a good start, but I’m not sure about him yet - probably not a full back.  

Thats hard to tell, Gary mackay Steven left liverpool after two years in their youth set up and couldn't get a contract, pretty sure he was even working in a hotel bar until he was given a chance by Dundee United. After he left liverpool he trained with Fulham and made a few appearances with Airdrie. It was 2 years after Liverpool that his career really started to take off and it was experience at Dundee United that developed his game imo. I am not saying he didn't develop at Liverpool or it wasn't beneficial but its not the ticket to top level football that ppl think it is. 

Another example is Ruben sammut, guy spent years in the Chelsea youth system and captained the reserve side. He left on loan at 21 to Falkirk and only made 10 appearances in the Scottish Championship. He went to Sunderland where last season he never played a first team game. 

Harvey St clair spent 12 years in Chelseas youth set up but could hardly get a game at killie, he made 3 appearances and now he plays at venezia in serie b where he's made 14 appearances in 2 seasons. 

Those are just three examples, there are worse cases like Steven watt at Chelsea, Donald love at man utd and Robbie foy at Liverpool.

I agree that Scottish Championship isnt much of a great place for development but there has been some successes who have played that level recently. Guys like Mcginn, snodgrass for example. 

Ideally I would rather Hickey continued to play spl football or a similar level but hearts got relegated and if he doesn't get a move to another club where he will play football then it wouldn't be the worst option for him to stick with hearts and help them win promotion, then he could have another season in the spl with hearts before moving on. 

If a lower level championship team was to buy him and play him then that would be a good option imo. 

 

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Are we not looking at this the wrong way around. Being in a big teams setup doesnt mean that you will defo make it as a big player. In the same way not being in a big teams setup doesnt mean you wont make it as a big player.

The question is where is the best place to learn your trade? My opinion is that its at the places that can afford to invest the most amount of time and money in you. 

Compare Hearts setup to Bayerns. Compare what he would be doing on a day to day basis. Compare who his "teachers" would be. Compare who his peers would be. Compare who is on close hand to watch and learn from. Compare the respective records of nurturing and producing world class players.

If the answer to the above is Hearts then fair enough. I just dont agree.

Whilst there is some merit in the argument that 1st team football is beneficial look at the goals of his coach at Hearts. Everything is aimed at getting the 3 points on game day. At a youth team its all about making the players better for the future demands of 1st team football. Players are not only allowed to try new things, they are encouraged. They can learn without the fear of dropping points, fans being on their backs or getting dropped etc

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Are we not looking at this the wrong way around. Being in a big teams setup doesnt mean that you will defo make it as a big player. In the same way not being in a big teams setup doesnt mean you wont make it as a big player.

The question is where is the best place to learn your trade? My opinion is that its at the places that can afford to invest the most amount of time and money in you. 

Compare Hearts setup to Bayerns. Compare what he would be doing on a day to day basis. Compare who his "teachers" would be. Compare who his peers would be. Compare who is on close hand to watch and learn from. Compare the respective records of nurturing and producing world class players.

If the answer to the above is Hearts then fair enough. I just dont agree.

Whilst there is some merit in the argument that 1st team football is beneficial look at the goals of his coach at Hearts. Everything is aimed at getting the 3 points on game day. At a youth team its all about making the players better for the future demands of 1st team football. Players are not only allowed to try new things, they are encouraged. They can learn without the fear of dropping points, fans being on their backs or getting dropped etc

 

 

I think first team football even at spl level can be a better teaching tool than playing youth football at a top club. The evidence shows that out of about 20 young players we have had at big European clubs 1 will make it.

Playing meaningful games where getting three points is a good learning experience. Players need to learn to take the pressure of having to get results which is much more intense than in youth football. The very things you have pointed out as drawbacks are actually why it is best to get first team football as a young player. 

He would learn alot at Bayern but it's not the necessarily the better option for the guys career at this point in time imo, as shown by the fact only 1 of our players in 15 years has come through a top clubs youth set up. 

 

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https://open.spotify.com/episode/5NmARk8YuYpPTcpQJaBUsX?si=dSXlx5MiSoannZpEb615Pg

I don't think I've seen this podcast (Scots Abroad) mentioned here but it's a series on Scots sports people living abroad and this one's with Fraser Hornby. It's interesting in its own right but in relation to the discussion above John Walker relates something Billy Gilmour said to him about why he moved to Chelsea. He felt that if he stayed in Scotland he would be fast tracked to first team football however he didn't feel ready, not grown enough. Going to Chelsea offered him protection, to develop in his own time.

This isn't an argument for Hickey to leave but just one of the options. For every Gilmour there's a Sammut or StClair. I don't think you can come down on one side of the 'stay at home and get development' or 'move to a big club and get time to develop and gain high quality coaching'. 

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Much rather he was at hearts playing first team football.   Fine if he is going to Bayern to play in their first team.. look all the pish talked on here about Ryan Gauld and that other one, can’t even remember his name, at Real Madrid.  Done f all.

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2 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Much rather he was at hearts playing first team football.   Fine if he is going to Bayern to play in their first team.. look all the pish talked on here about Ryan Gauld and that other one, can’t even remember his name, at Real Madrid.  Done f all.

You really don't like anything foreign or non-British do you ? :rollsmile:

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16 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

I think first team football even at spl level can be a better teaching tool than playing youth football at a top club. The evidence shows that out of about 20 young players we have had at big European clubs 1 will make it.

Playing meaningful games where getting three points is a good learning experience. Players need to learn to take the pressure of having to get results which is much more intense than in youth football. The very things you have pointed out as drawbacks are actually why it is best to get first team football as a young player. 

He would learn alot at Bayern but it's not the necessarily the better option for the guys career at this point in time imo, as shown by the fact only 1 of our players in 15 years has come through a top clubs youth set up. 

 

In the last 15 years we have had 2 players come through at top 4 sides. Gilmour and McTomminay. We have had 1 work their way to a top 4 side. Robertson.

Pressure is the worst thing for a learning enviroment. You need the skills and technique before you can handle the pressure and do the job properly.

Its why all the top clubs invest in youth systems so heavily. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Much rather he was at hearts playing first team football.   Fine if he is going to Bayern to play in their first team.. look all the pish talked on here about Ryan Gauld and that other one, can’t even remember his name, at Real Madrid.  Done f all.

Its very easy to talk about players at top clubs who didnt make it however I could name many many more players who played for Hearts or other SPFL clubs who didnt become top class.

Answer me this. Which club have produced more top class players through their youth systems. Bayern Munich or Hearts?

 

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Just now, Malcolm said:


totally up for our players playing abroad... souness, Jordan, Archibald. 
 

as long as they play first team football...   

Sixteen, seventeen, eighteen year old Scots will get a much better football education in Germany, Spain etc. They will also get to sample a better lifestyle, less junk food, less heavy boozing and have their horizons broadened by learning a new language and culture. I fail to see how anyone could object to that.

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23 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

In the last 15 years we have had 2 players come through at top 4 sides. Gilmour and McTomminay. We have had 1 work their way to a top 4 side. Robertson.

Pressure is the worst thing for a learning enviroment. You need the skills and technique before you can handle the pressure and do the job properly.

Its why all the top clubs invest in youth systems so heavily. 

 

 

Gilmour has yet to properly make it, he's only played a handful of games. He could easily still not make it at Chelsea or a high level. 

Mctominay is the only 1 in 15 years to come through at a top European clubs youth set up. There's probably been 20 young Scots in that time period. 

Playing first team football even in the spl is better technically than youth epl football imo. It's also important for young players to learn about pressure from a young age. If he can't handle it at Hearts he's going to struggle at a big club. 

Top clubs invest in youth set ups and then hoover up talent like Hickey with the hope they come good. Obviously they try to develop the young player but reality is they are just expecting 1 or 2 players to break through every 5 years. 

Tbh my only point in all of this is for ppl not to get too excited by all of this speculation about hickey going to a top club as it very rarely results in a top player making it there. 

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2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Thats hard to tell, Gary mackay Steven left liverpool after two years in their youth set up and couldn't get a contract, pretty sure he was even working in a hotel bar until he was given a chance by Dundee United. After he left liverpool he trained with Fulham and made a few appearances with Airdrie. It was 2 years after Liverpool that his career really started to take off and it was experience at Dundee United that developed his game imo. I am not saying he didn't develop at Liverpool or it wasn't beneficial but its not the ticket to top level football that ppl think it is. 

Another example is Ruben sammut, guy spent years in the Chelsea youth system and captained the reserve side. He left on loan at 21 to Falkirk and only made 10 appearances in the Scottish Championship. He went to Sunderland where last season he never played a first team game. 

Harvey St clair spent 12 years in Chelseas youth set up but could hardly get a game at killie, he made 3 appearances and now he plays at venezia in serie b where he's made 14 appearances in 2 seasons. 

Those are just three examples, there are worse cases like Steven watt at Chelsea, Donald love at man utd and Robbie foy at Liverpool.

I agree that Scottish Championship isnt much of a great place for development but there has been some successes who have played that level recently. Guys like Mcginn, snodgrass for example. 

Ideally I would rather Hickey continued to play spl football or a similar level but hearts got relegated and if he doesn't get a move to another club where he will play football then it wouldn't be the worst option for him to stick with hearts and help them win promotion, then he could have another season in the spl with hearts before moving on. 

If a lower level championship team was to buy him and play him then that would be a good option imo. 

 

Many of the players you mention may not have made it elsewhere anyway. There are no guarantees. That said, if big clubs are actively trying to recruit an 18 year old with first team experience, it’s a good sign. It will also mean there’s a good chance someone will be released to make room for said player. Swings and roundabouts.

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27 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Sixteen, seventeen, eighteen year old Scots will get a much better football education in Germany, Spain etc. They will also get to sample a better lifestyle, less junk food, less heavy boozing and have their horizons broadened by learning a new language and culture. I fail to see how anyone could object to that.

Clubs in England have top class facilities and they teach their young players to eat right. Epl clubs have top class coaching that will be just as good as Spain or Germany. Moving to Europe is a good option for the reasons you have listed but if your going there just to play youth football then it's probably not much better than staying in Scotland and playing spl imo. Young players should play first team football if they want to develop their career. 

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3 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

Many of the players you mention may not have made it elsewhere anyway. There are no guarantees. That said, if big clubs are actively trying to recruit an 18 year old with first team experience, it’s a good sign. It will also mean there’s a good chance someone will be released to make room for said player. Swings and roundabouts.

Its easy to say that now, everybody had high hopes for these guys including me. Last 15 or more years has shown me that getting signed up at 17/18 for a top club means very little. I am often more excited when I see a young 18/19 doing well in the spl or English championship because I know that they have already made the jump to meaningful football. For example I hold out more hope for someone like Porteous or mcintyre at CB than morrison who signed for Bayern.

Your telling me bayern or even Aston villa are going to release a first team player to make room for Hickey. If Hickey goes to even Aston villa he will be straight to the youth set up. 

Its a good sign that big clubs are interested in hickey but it's not a guaranteed ticket to a career at the top. 

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37 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Its easy to say that now, everybody had high hopes for these guys including me. Last 15 or more years has shown me that getting signed up at 17/18 for a top club means very little. I am often more excited when I see a young 18/19 doing well in the spl or English championship because I know that they have already made the jump to meaningful football. For example I hold out more hope for someone like Porteous or mcintyre at CB than morrison who signed for Bayern.

Your telling me bayern or even Aston villa are going to release a first team player to make room for Hickey. If Hickey goes to even Aston villa he will be straight to the youth set up. 

Its a good sign that big clubs are interested in hickey but it's not a guaranteed ticket to a career at the top. 


he is hot and cold at hearts... still needs to prove himself.  He is miles away from a big club yet.i just don’t see the point in disappearing to a big club to be never seen again.  The likes of a Ryan Christie moving to a big club then yes he has a chance of getting a game.

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57 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Clubs in England have top class facilities and they teach their young players to eat right. Epl clubs have top class coaching that will be just as good as Spain or Germany. Moving to Europe is a good option for the reasons you have listed but if your going there just to play youth football then it's probably not much better than staying in Scotland and playing spl imo. Young players should play first team football if they want to develop their career. 

Bloody hell I didn't know that Rudyard Kipling posted on the TAMB.

"It's England yet my lads, good old England yet...."

Go abroad is my advice.

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51 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Bloody hell I didn't know that Rudyard Kipling posted on the TAMB.

"It's England yet my lads, good old England yet...."

Go abroad is my advice.

You seem to be bitter about English football, most of your responses to my posts are smart arse comments about how much I "love England or English football". Why don't you make some decent points as opposed to sly wee digs. I want our players to play epl football, I won't deny that fact. If you would rather our players played a lower level of football fair enough. 

Going abroad is a good idea but it's also not that great if your going just to play youth football. I think Hickey is better off going where he gets first team football where ever that is. 

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2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Gilmour has yet to properly make it, he's only played a handful of games. He could easily still not make it at Chelsea or a high level. 

Mctominay is the only 1 in 15 years to come through at a top European clubs youth set up. There's probably been 20 young Scots in that time period. 

Playing first team football even in the spl is better technically than youth epl football imo. It's also important for young players to learn about pressure from a young age. If he can't handle it at Hearts he's going to struggle at a big club. 

Top clubs invest in youth set ups and then hoover up talent like Hickey with the hope they come good. Obviously they try to develop the young player but reality is they are just expecting 1 or 2 players to break through every 5 years. 

Tbh my only point in all of this is for ppl not to get too excited by all of this speculation about hickey going to a top club as it very rarely results in a top player making it there. 

Gilmour burst onto the scene at Chelsea and his displays have shown more in those handful of appearences than 5 seasons in the SPFL. 

I agree though, moving to a big club is nothing to get our hopes up over but its a start. Its like getting accepted into a top University. It doesnt mean you will end up with a top degree but increases your chances over a poorer establishment.

The chances are that if you are 21 and playing first team football for Hibs / Hearts etc that the best you can realistically hope for is mid table EPL. Robertson being the exception in the past 20 years. Morrison most likely wont make it at Bayern but 1 thing is for sure. If he does make it then he will be a world class defender who will be a million times better than his peers at Scotland youth level who got 1st team football in the Scottish Championship or for teams like Ross County.

Id rather 100 of our promising kids went to top clubs and 95% of them completely failed as that would mean we would have 5 players who were real quality. Its that quality that gets you to tournaments rather than finishing 3rd all the time.

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32 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

You seem to be bitter about English football, most of your responses to my posts are smart arse comments about how much I "love England or English football". Why don't you make some decent points as opposed to sly wee digs. I want our players to play epl football, I won't deny that fact. If you would rather our players played a lower level of football fair enough. 

Going abroad is a good idea but it's also not that great if your going just to play youth football. I think Hickey is better off going where he gets first team football where ever that is. 

Or maybe because your clearly utterly obsessed with English football and the lie that Sky Sports have sold you about it being the best the world has ever seen or ever will see ? Utter shite. 

Your argument against going abroad makes no sense. How is it any worse than going down to Everton or Aston Villa to play youth football for two years, then get released, spend a miserable year at Oldham and then back up the road to sit on the bench for East Fife ?

Going abroad is the right thing to do now. It isn't 1955 anymore.

Edited by ErsatzThistle
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16 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Or maybe because your clearly utterly obsessed with English football and the lie that Sky Sports have sold you about it being the best the world has ever seen or ever will see ? Utter shite. 

Your argument against going abroad makes no sense. How is it any worse than going down to Everton or Aston Villa to play youth football for two years, then get released, spend a miserable year at Oldham and then back up the road to sit on the bench for East Fife ?

Going abroad is the right thing to do now. It isn't 1955 anymore.

I have never said its the best ever. You just seem to want to make sly digs at me because you don't like the fact its a good league for our players to play in. There's plenty on this board who agree with me and that's because it's common sense to want our players to get experience against top players each week which the epl provides. 

Have you read anything I have written, I have been saying that Hickey shouldn't move to an epl team to play in their youth set up. I don't mind him moving abroad but I don't think it's necessarily a better option than him staying at Hearts for another couple of seasons. If he moves abroad to a team where he will get first team football then excellent. If its to just to go into their youth set up then I think its maybe better to stay at Hearts. 

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5 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

I have never said its the best ever. You just seem to want to make sly digs at me because you don't like the fact its a good league for our players to play in. There's plenty on this board who agree with me and that's because it's common sense to want our players to get experience against top players each week which the epl provides. 

Have you read anything I have written, I have been saying that Hickey shouldn't move to an epl team to play in their youth set up. I don't mind him moving abroad but I don't think it's necessarily a better option than him staying at Hearts for another couple of seasons. If he moves abroad to a team where he will get first team football then excellent. If its to just to go into their youth set up then I think its maybe better to stay at Hearts. 

That's pretty damn rich of you to accuse me of not reading anything you post when you kept deliberately twisting the words that Caledonian Craig and I were posting a coupe of weeks ago.

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7 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

That's pretty damn rich of you to accuse me of not reading anything you post when you kept deliberately twisting the words that Caledonian Craig and I were posting a coupe of weeks ago.

Lol so now we get to the bottom of why u are making sly digs at me, I have never tried to twist your words or Caledonian Craigs. We had a fair discussion on whether Che Adams would get in our squad if he was Scottish. Somehow from that argument you have now made out that I think the epl or English football is the greatest football ever. I am also now pro English according to you as well.

I am able to accept that the top flight of England is one of the best leagues in the world and our players playing there is good for the national team. This does not mean I am anti Scottish league or anti Scotland, I am able to be objective and see the facts in front of me. 

 

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1 minute ago, mccaughey85 said:

Lol so now we get to the bottom of why u are making sly digs at me, I have never tried to twist your words or Caledonian Craigs. We had a fair discussion on whether Che Adams would get in our squad if he was Scottish. Somehow from that argument you have now made out that I think the epl or English football is the greatest football ever. I am also now pro English according to you as well.

I am able to accept that the top flight of England is one of the best leagues in the world and our players playing there is good for the national team. This does not mean I am anti Scottish league or anti Scotland, I am able to be objective and see the facts in front of me. 

 

Still the broken record with the pompous, self appointed, football expert lectures.

Ignore.

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