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Scottish player transfers


SkyBlueScot

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Id rather Hickey move to Bayern or Bologna and risk doing a Feruz than remaining at Hearts until he is 21, playing a full season against utter dross then if Hearts get promoted the next season against slightly better players.

We have churned out SPFL standard players / lower EPL / High championship players for years. Our squad depth of these types of players has always been high.

What we lack is top end players where basically we have had Darren Fletcher and now Andy Robertson over past 20 years. 

We need to get high volume numbers of youths into the best setups in the hope that some Gilmours and McTomminays come through. 

If we can reguarly start to have 4 or 5 players playing with top 6 sides in best 5 leagues and compliment them with our normal standard of player then we will have a much better chance of doing something as a team.

Also, the more our players move and become a success the more clubs will start to take a chance on our other players and pay more for them in turn.

Tierney is a classic example. He was the best player in Scotland. If he failed at Arsenal what would that have said the next time a player was good up here. The fact he is now proving himself raises the profile of the likes of Christie etc imo.

 

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4 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Id rather Hickey move to Bayern or Bologna and risk doing a Feruz than remaining at Hearts until he is 21, playing a full season against utter dross then if Hearts get promoted the next season against slightly better players.

We have churned out SPFL standard players / lower EPL / High championship players for years. Our squad depth of these types of players has always been high.

What we lack is top end players where basically we have had Darren Fletcher and now Andy Robertson over past 20 years. 

We need to get high volume numbers of youths into the best setups in the hope that some Gilmours and McTomminays come through. 

If we can reguarly start to have 4 or 5 players playing with top 6 sides in best 5 leagues and compliment them with our normal standard of player then we will have a much better chance of doing something as a team.

Also, the more our players move and become a success the more clubs will start to take a chance on our other players and pay more for them in turn.

Tierney is a classic example. He was the best player in Scotland. If he failed at Arsenal what would that have said the next time a player was good up here. The fact he is now proving himself raises the profile of the likes of Christie etc imo.

 

Our young players barely ever make the grade at big clubs, would be better getting a couple of years playing football rather than going to some big European club and playing youth football which is a pretty low standard of football. Fair enough Gilmour and mctominay have made it but I could name you another 20 who haven't. 

Tierneys situation is completely different to Hickeys, Tierney spent his early career getting gametime and experience and had moved to arsenal with the understanding he would be playing first team football. If anything he's an example of not moving too soon and gaining first team experience albeit at a lower standard. If Hickey moves to a top European club or even a lower epl club he will be chucked straight into their youth set up. That's not always the best move imo. Just look at Tony gallacher, signed by Liverpool from Falkirk at 18 and hasn't played first team football yet since he moved. 

We have had plenty of young players at top clubs and loads more at average epl clubs and barely any of them make the grade. Hickey moving to one of these clubs could just stifle his development whereas first team football in Scotland might help him develop much like it did to guys like Mcginn and Armstrong etc. 

Personally I don't see the big fuss over Hickey, he looks very average to me and I don't think he has the speed or athletic physique for top level football. I will happy be proved wrong though. 

 

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30 minutes ago, romanticscot said:

Aston Villa would be a good move for Hickey, a higher standard than Scottish Championship would be great. 

He won't get a sniff of first team football at Aston villa, he will be thrown into the youth set up. These teams that are interested in Hickey have no intention on buying him for the first team squad. I think ppl need to realise that when getting excited about his potential transfer to top clubs. 

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1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

He won't get a sniff of first team football at Aston villa, he will be thrown into the youth set up. These teams that are interested in Hickey have no intention on buying him for the first team squad. I think ppl need to realise that when getting excited about his potential transfer to top clubs. 

So he's better of were he is?

There's probably three Sottish players at Parkhead that some EPL teams would look at with the intention of playing. I'm pretty sure it is more exciting having players linked to big clubs than not.

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26 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

So he's better of were he is?

There's probably three Sottish players at Parkhead that some EPL teams would look at with the intention of playing. I'm pretty sure it is more exciting having players linked to big clubs than not.

Maybe yes. 

He can play first team football for a couple more seasons then move when he's 20 to an epl team with the hope of actually playing. Or he could move to English championship team and play a couple of seasons and then move at 22 to an epl club. 

I am not suggesting it's terrible idea for him to move to a top European club or an epl club. He might be good enough to make a breakthrough there but it's also not a bad idea to stay put. He's only just turned 18 and first team football will do his career alot of good imo. 

 

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11 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Maybe yes. 

He can play first team football for a couple more seasons then move when he's 20 to an epl team with the hope of actually playing. Or he could move to English championship team and play a couple of seasons and then move at 22 to an epl club. 

I am not suggesting it's terrible idea for him to move to a top European club or an epl club. He might be good enough to make a breakthrough there but it's also not a bad idea to stay put. He's only just turned 18 and first team football will do his career alot of good imo. 

 

Just how much do you love English football ? Really. :lol:

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55 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Maybe yes. 

He can play first team football for a couple more seasons then move when he's 20 to an epl team with the hope of actually playing. Or he could move to English championship team and play a couple of seasons and then move at 22 to an epl club. 

I am not suggesting it's terrible idea for him to move to a top European club or an epl club. He might be good enough to make a breakthrough there but it's also not a bad idea to stay put. He's only just turned 18 and first team football will do his career alot of good imo. 

 

Honestly don't think you learn very much playing in a team with mediocre  team mates against equally poor opposition.

He's just turned 18 and if he is good enough he will make it quicker and to a higher standard joining a decent clubs academy than he ever will if he wastes two more years of his development here.

It is just a matter of opinion though but I really can't see much benefit of playing against men until you are good enough. Get a loan move back to the SPL in two years time maybe but that's about the only reason to play here. I am giving some credit to the Celtic academy  but that's about it in Scotland

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6 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Our young players barely ever make the grade at big clubs, would be better getting a couple of years playing football rather than going to some big European club and playing youth football which is a pretty low standard of football. Fair enough Gilmour and mctominay have made it but I could name you another 20 who haven't. 

Tierneys situation is completely different to Hickeys, Tierney spent his early career getting gametime and experience and had moved to arsenal with the understanding he would be playing first team football. If anything he's an example of not moving too soon and gaining first team experience albeit at a lower standard. If Hickey moves to a top European club or even a lower epl club he will be chucked straight into their youth set up. That's not always the best move imo. Just look at Tony gallacher, signed by Liverpool from Falkirk at 18 and hasn't played first team football yet since he moved. 

We have had plenty of young players at top clubs and loads more at average epl clubs and barely any of them make the grade. Hickey moving to one of these clubs could just stifle his development whereas first team football in Scotland might help him develop much like it did to guys like Mcginn and Armstrong etc. 

Personally I don't see the big fuss over Hickey, he looks very average to me and I don't think he has the speed or athletic physique for top level football. I will happy be proved wrong though. 

 

Thats my point though. Staying in Scotland is the safe option that we have been doing for years. Lots of young players can stay in Scotland until early 20s then move to England and end up at lower EPL / top end Championship but we have loads of those players and they arent difference makers. 

If any young player moves to a top club in a top league early then they benefit from all the things money buys at these clubs. Top coaches, sports science etc etc. Most top clubs have more qualified and talented coaches in charge of their youth teams than we have in our main teams. When you take into account facilities, coaches, sports science etc, id bet more cash is spent on Bayern under 17s per player than 1st team players at establisged SPFL teams like Motherwell. 

Yes most of these players wont make it however the ones that are potentially european or world class. Look at the smaller nations who compete international level. They have 3 or 4 top players, 4 or 5 average players and the rest just space fillers. 

We fill our teams with average players in the grand scheme of things. Guys like McFadden, Brown, Miller, Naismith, Caldwell etc. 

Years 16-20 are key in development. Game time isnt the be all and end all. Look at Phil Foden. Only plays for city as a bit part but tipped to be world class. Why, because he is learning his trade.

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1 hour ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Honestly don't think you learn very much playing in a team with mediocre  team mates against equally poor opposition.

He's just turned 18 and if he is good enough he will make it quicker and to a higher standard joining a decent clubs academy than he ever will if he wastes two more years of his development here.

It is just a matter of opinion though but I really can't see much benefit of playing against men until you are good enough. Get a loan move back to the SPL in two years time maybe but that's about the only reason to play here. I am giving some credit to the Celtic academy  but that's about it in Scotland

Countless of our young players don't make it at epl clubs. Playing youth football isn't better than spl imo. It might be better than Scottish Championship but it's hard to tell. Have you ever watched epl youth football. It's a lower standard than spl imo. 

Ruben sammut for example captained Chelseas youth team and played several years in their youth set up. He hardly got a game for Falkirk in the 18/19 season and he has yet to play for Sunderland. He's 22 and played only 12 Pro games in his career. 

Tony gallacher went to Liverpool a couple of seasons ago after making 26 appearances for Falkirk and is now 21 with no chance of making the Liverpool first team squad. 

I think it might be better if the guy was to play a season in the Scottish Championship with hearts and then a season in the spl. By then he will only be 20 and he could easily have 100 games under his belt. He could then move to either of the old firm or move to good English championship side where he could continue his development.

Moving to an epl club right now would result in playing epl youth football unless he gets loaned out. 

Your suggesting that spending two more years in Scotland won't help his development but it did no harm to guys like Mcginn or Armstrong. If a big club like bayern or an epl club come in for him then he will have a big decision to make but I think alot of ppl on here think it's great for him to move when the fact is he will be just going straight into a youth set up much like Tony gallacher did. 

I wish the guy the best whatever his decision and hope he becomes a star whatever path he chooses. 

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11 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Id rather Hickey move to Bayern or Bologna and risk doing a Feruz than remaining at Hearts until he is 21, playing a full season against utter dross then if Hearts get promoted the next season against slightly better players.

We have churned out SPFL standard players / lower EPL / High championship players for years. Our squad depth of these types of players has always been high.

What we lack is top end players where basically we have had Darren Fletcher and now Andy Robertson over past 20 years. 

We need to get high volume numbers of youths into the best setups in the hope that some Gilmours and McTomminays come through. 

If we can reguarly start to have 4 or 5 players playing with top 6 sides in best 5 leagues and compliment them with our normal standard of player then we will have a much better chance of doing something as a team.

Also, the more our players move and become a success the more clubs will start to take a chance on our other players and pay more for them in turn.

Tierney is a classic example. He was the best player in Scotland. If he failed at Arsenal what would that have said the next time a player was good up here. The fact he is now proving himself raises the profile of the likes of Christie etc imo.

 

That’s a very good post 

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19 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Thats my point though. Staying in Scotland is the safe option that we have been doing for years. Lots of young players can stay in Scotland until early 20s then move to England and end up at lower EPL / top end Championship but we have loads of those players and they arent difference makers. 

If any young player moves to a top club in a top league early then they benefit from all the things money buys at these clubs. Top coaches, sports science etc etc. Most top clubs have more qualified and talented coaches in charge of their youth teams than we have in our main teams. When you take into account facilities, coaches, sports science etc, id bet more cash is spent on Bayern under 17s per player than 1st team players at establisged SPFL teams like Motherwell. 

Yes most of these players wont make it however the ones that are potentially european or world class. Look at the smaller nations who compete international level. They have 3 or 4 top players, 4 or 5 average players and the rest just space fillers. 

We fill our teams with average players in the grand scheme of things. Guys like McFadden, Brown, Miller, Naismith, Caldwell etc. 

Years 16-20 are key in development. Game time isnt the be all and end all. Look at Phil Foden. Only plays for city as a bit part but tipped to be world class. Why, because he is learning his trade.

I suppose it comes down to our opinions on Hickey, I think he's a decent player who could maybe make it in a lower half epl team in several years. Phil foden is a special talent who will play at the top level for years to come. That's why foden gets gametime for man City and why Hickey wouldn't. 

I believe hickeys best route til lower epl level is to play professional football at spl level for a couple more seasons and then when he's 20/21 make the move to a lower epl club or a good English championship club. 

The evidence and statistics for young Scots making it through epl/foreign youth set ups is extremely poor, maybe even as bad as 1/20. That suggests that with all the good coaching and all the money spent its still not working for our young players. 

Our successes recently have been guys like Armstrong, snodgrass, Mcginn. These guys spent a fair chunk of their early careers playing first team football at a relatively low level in Scotland before they moved. Even a guy like burke might of benefitted from staying put at forest and playing championship football for a couple of seasons instead of going to leipzig and struggling. 

Going to an epl club or a big European club just to play in their youth set up is not massive success that alot on here seem to think it is. The evidence from the last 15 years clearly shows we our young players don't break through at that level. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Malcolm said:


In reference to moving from hearts to another club.  Needs to prove himself there.  Clearly not ready for international football.

Ah the classic "learn yir apprenticeship" pish and suspicion of foreign coaching methods.

We need to move on from that kind of rubbish.

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9 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Ah the classic "learn yir apprenticeship" pish and suspicion of foreign coaching methods.

We need to move on from that kind of rubbish.

As long as he is big and strong, that's all you ever need

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21 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Id rather Hickey move to Bayern or Bologna and risk doing a Feruz than remaining at Hearts until he is 21, playing a full season against utter dross then if Hearts get promoted the next season against slightly better players.

 

 

Agreed, he'll learn nothing playing against shite like Ayr, Alloa and Arbroath.

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17 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

 

Personally I don't see the big fuss over Hickey, he looks very average to me and I don't think he has the speed or athletic physique for top level football. I will happy be proved wrong though. 

 

I watched Chris Burke tear him a new arsehole on more than one occasion last season, one game in particular saw Hickey subbed at HT.

Like yourself I don't see the fuss but there must be something there as too many big clubs are sniffing about. He's way down the pecking order though in terms of Scotland.

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14 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I suppose it comes down to our opinions on Hickey, I think he's a decent player who could maybe make it in a lower half epl team in several years. Phil foden is a special talent who will play at the top level for years to come. That's why foden gets gametime for man City and why Hickey wouldn't. 

I believe hickeys best route til lower epl level is to play professional football at spl level for a couple more seasons and then when he's 20/21 make the move to a lower epl club or a good English championship club. 

The evidence and statistics for young Scots making it through epl/foreign youth set ups is extremely poor, maybe even as bad as 1/20. That suggests that with all the good coaching and all the money spent its still not working for our young players. 

Our successes recently have been guys like Armstrong, snodgrass, Mcginn. These guys spent a fair chunk of their early careers playing first team football at a relatively low level in Scotland before they moved. Even a guy like burke might of benefitted from staying put at forest and playing championship football for a couple of seasons instead of going to leipzig and struggling. 

Going to an epl club or a big European club just to play in their youth set up is not massive success that alot on here seem to think it is. The evidence from the last 15 years clearly shows we our young players don't break through at that level. 

 

 

For what its worth ive never seen anything in Hickey that makes me think he will be a top player. My comments are more a general opinion.

I like Armstrong, McGinn and Snodgrass but they are perfect examples of the decent footballers I was talking about. To qualify we need guys like them plus 2 or 3 top players.

EPL youth football isnt the best but at that age its about development over game time. There was a thing called a day with Gilmour when he was about 16 ay Chelsea. The level of specific detail that goes into these kids development is unreal and way above what you probably see at any SPFL first teams. He had tailored diet, tailored gym sessions, tailored DVD analysis not only of his own game but of other top players who he could learn technique from, a tailored improvement plan which setout all the techniques and a traffic light system of where he was at and needed to improve. It is no wonder that when players break through at these teams they seem ready made. 

Its not to say its a sure thing as alot of kids wont progress but what these clubs do is give them the best possible chance.

Just look at the calibre of coaches. Bayern have Martin Demichelis and Miroslav Close as their U19 and U17 coaches. Who do you think a young player can learn more from? Them or Robbie Neilson and Lee McCulloch?

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18 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

For what its worth ive never seen anything in Hickey that makes me think he will be a top player. My comments are more a general opinion.

I like Armstrong, McGinn and Snodgrass but they are perfect examples of the decent footballers I was talking about. To qualify we need guys like them plus 2 or 3 top players.

EPL youth football isnt the best but at that age its about development over game time. There was a thing called a day with Gilmour when he was about 16 ay Chelsea. The level of specific detail that goes into these kids development is unreal and way above what you probably see at any SPFL first teams. He had tailored diet, tailored gym sessions, tailored DVD analysis not only of his own game but of other top players who he could learn technique from, a tailored improvement plan which setout all the techniques and a traffic light system of where he was at and needed to improve. It is no wonder that when players break through at these teams they seem ready made. 

Its not to say its a sure thing as alot of kids wont progress but what these clubs do is give them the best possible chance.

Just look at the calibre of coaches. Bayern have Martin Demichelis and Miroslav Close as their U19 and U17 coaches. Who do you think a young player can learn more from? Them or Robbie Neilson and Lee McCulloch?

With Hickeys case I think first team football would be more beneficial to his career as its unlikely he will ever make it at a top level club like bayern or Liverpool etc. If he went to one of those clubs right now I reckon he would just spend 2/3 years in their youth set up and then would be back to the spl or English championship. With Gilmour it was different, he is a genuine talent who looks like he could be the best in position in a few years and he's been fast tracked by Chelsea. 

I think for a player like Hickey first team football would do him alot more good than playing youth football despite these clubs having better coaches and facilities. First team football does a player in Hickeys situation alot more good imo even though its at a low standard. 

We have had only 2 young players come through at top clubs in the past 15 years which would suggest that all the great facilities and great coaching isn't making as big a difference as it should. We have only had mctominay and potentially Gilmour come through. I could probably name 15 or more of the top of my head that haven't made the grade. 

Guys like Mcginn, armstrong and snodgrass played first team football at a young age and have progressed to become good epl players. Tbh Hickey will be lucky to hit those levels no matter what path he chooses but I think his best path to it is to stay at spl level for a couple more seasons before he decides to move south. He would only be 20 and wouldn't have wasted 2 years playing youth football. 

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44 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

With Hickeys case I think first team football would be more beneficial to his career as its unlikely he will ever make it at a top level club like bayern or Liverpool etc. If he went to one of those clubs right now I reckon he would just spend 2/3 years in their youth set up and then would be back to the spl or English championship. With Gilmour it was different, he is a genuine talent who looks like he could be the best in position in a few years and he's been fast tracked by Chelsea. 

I think for a player like Hickey first team football would do him alot more good than playing youth football despite these clubs having better coaches and facilities. First team football does a player in Hickeys situation alot more good imo even though its at a low standard. 

We have had only 2 young players come through at top clubs in the past 15 years which would suggest that all the great facilities and great coaching isn't making as big a difference as it should. We have only had mctominay and potentially Gilmour come through. I could probably name 15 or more of the top of my head that haven't made the grade. 

Guys like Mcginn, armstrong and snodgrass played first team football at a young age and have progressed to become good epl players. Tbh Hickey will be lucky to hit those levels no matter what path he chooses but I think his best path to it is to stay at spl level for a couple more seasons before he decides to move south. He would only be 20 and wouldn't have wasted 2 years playing youth football. 

Not disagreeing with regards to Hickey but interested to hear what you think could learn during these 2 years? Is he likely to come up against any players of real skill, pace or ability? Is he likely to have a programme put in place to develop him with Hearts?

Big clubs obviously see something in him. I think he would be more likely to learn playing against Germanys up and coming stars and getting access to all the things I mentioned.

Its interesting to hear what Tierney is saying about Arsenal and playing in the EPL. Simply put, training with and playing against top players makes you a better player. All aspects of his game need to improve or they are punished in a way that they just arent in Scotland.

 

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25 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Not disagreeing with regards to Hickey but interested to hear what you think could learn during these 2 years? Is he likely to come up against any players of real skill, pace or ability? Is he likely to have a programme put in place to develop him with Hearts?

Big clubs obviously see something in him. I think he would be more likely to learn playing against Germanys up and coming stars and getting access to all the things I mentioned.

Its interesting to hear what Tierney is saying about Arsenal and playing in the EPL. Simply put, training with and playing against top players makes you a better player. All aspects of his game need to improve or they are punished in a way that they just arent in Scotland.

 

I think that playing for the hearts first team over the next two years would trump any development programme and playing youth football at a big club like Aston villa. I have watched a few epl youth(u23s) games and it's pretty dire standard. Usually only 1 or 2 tend to go onto top level football(epl or other European big leagues) and the vast majority end up in the English lower leagues or lesser leagues in Europe like the spl. The epl and top leagues in Europe have a huge amount of players who started their careers in either lesser leagues like Belgium, Holland, Austria etc or the English championship/league 1. They get gametime in these leagues and gain experience playing professional first team football in meaningful games that matter. 

You bring up Tierney but hes a perfect example of the point I am trying to put across, he spent his young career playing first team football at a relatively poor level in Scotland but he got first team experience and played for celtic in big matches. If he had of left at 17/18 to somewhere like man City would he of developed into the player he is now. Its hard to say, he might of as he is a special talent but I reckon it was better for him to gain first team experience. 

Tierney at this stage of his career will develop much more at arsenal because he's playing and training with the first team. Hickey will not be moving to any top club to be in the first team squad. 

I think it's a gamble that Hickey has to consider and the club that he moves to could send him out on good loan moves where he gets first team football. But it's not necessarily certain that moving to a big club will be best for his career imo. He's a young lad and can always move up a level at 20 years old when he's a bit more mature and experienced. 

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