New manager: Who do you want?

[Bino's]

I think we should go for Scot Gemmil

appointing a recently retired player and letting him come through the under 19's, u21's and into full squad is how the Croatians have done it sometimes and can work well

working with the youth you've brought right through yourself

it would be a new approach for us than the aged manager at the end of his career

[Texas Pete]

28 minutes ago, DoonTheSlope said:

We got to the playoffs 

Good point.

The group was easy though. Levein would have got us a playoff that year. 

[DoonTheSlope]

8 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Good point.

The group was easy though. Levein would have got us a playoff that year. 

Not half as easy as it was to get a playoff place for Euro2016 but Wee Chicken Baws cost us that campaign, just like he did in the last one

Even Craig Levein and George Burley had us going into the last round of fixtures with a glimmer of hope. The easiest chance of all to progress was Euro2016 yet Wee Chicken Baws made sure we went to Portugal for a dead rubber then made out at full time that it was some sort of monumental moment in the history of Scottish football that many fans on here lapped up. The "1GS" brigade in Faro are complicit in the recent downfall

Edited February 10, 2018 by DoonTheSlope

[Texas Pete]

22 minutes ago, DoonTheSlope said:

Not half as easy as it was to get a playoff place for Euro2016 but Wee Chicken Baws cost us that campaign, just like he did in the last one

Even Craig Levein and George Burley had us going into the last round of fixtures with a glimmer of hope. The easiest chance of all to progress was Euro2016 yet Wee Chicken Baws made sure we went to Portugal for a dead rubber then made out at full time that it was some sort of monumental moment in the history of Scottish football that many fans on here lapped up. The "1GS" brigade in Faro are complicit in the recent downfall

There’s no doubt that we should have got a playoff in that group but I’m not sure if it was easier than the group where Berti got second. 

We were second seeds and the third seeds were Iceland who have never beaten us (I know they would now) and were rank rotten at the time. We dropped points against the Faroes and still finished second. That’s how poor that group was. Having said that, we were never going to win the group so Berti got the best possible result so can’t really fault him for that. 

It was always going to be difficult to finish third in a group with Germany, Poland and Ireland. Germany dropping points to everyone but us didn’t help. 

We were almost guaranteed second in Berti’s group, third would have been a great result in our last Euros group. 

[DoonTheSlope]

1 minute ago, Texas Pete said:

There’s no doubt that we should have got a playoff in that group but I’m not sure if it was easier than the group where Berti got second. 

We were second seeds and the third seeds were Iceland who have never beaten us (I know they would now) and were rank rotten at the time. We dropped points against the Faroes and still finished second. That’s how poor that group was. Having said that, we were never going to win the group so Berti got the best possible result so can’t really fault him for that. 

It was always going to be difficult to finish third in a group with Germany, Poland and Ireland. Germany dropping points to everyone but us didn’t help. 

We were almost guaranteed second in Berti’s group, third would have been a great result in our last Euros group. 

So what you're saying is that Berti carried out his remit? Didn't go the way we wanted in the playoffs mind you

As for Germany dropping to everyone else, that is nothing more than a cop out. If you have to rely on the results of other teams regardless of the size and capabilitys of our own side then you simply don't deserve to qualify. End Off. 

[Texas Pete]

6 minutes ago, DoonTheSlope said:

So what you're saying is that Berti carried out his remit? Didn't go the way we wanted in the playoffs mind you

As for Germany dropping to everyone else, that is nothing more than a cop out. If you have to rely on the results of other teams regardless of the size and capabilitys of our own side then you simply don't deserve to qualify. End Off. 

Well, almost. His remit would have been to get us to Portugal and he didn’t. Beating The Netherlands was always going to be difficult though. 

Berti was a victim of Roxburgh and Brown’s success I suppose though. Drawing with the Faroes and getting pumped in the playoffs was seen as a big failure. 

I absolutely agree that we can’t use Germany dropping points as an excuse but the fact remains that if the World Champions has done their job and beaten all of us home and away we would have got at least a playoff or maybe even automatic qualification. Like you say though, we can’t rely on or blame anyone else. Still a pain in the clacker bag though. 

[DoonTheSlope]

4 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Well, almost. His remit would have been to get us to Portugal and he didn’t. Beating The Netherlands was always going to be difficult though. 

Berti was a victim of Roxburgh and Brown’s success I suppose though. Drawing with the Faroes and getting pumped in the playoffs was seen as a big failure. 

I absolutely agree that we can’t use Germany dropping points as an excuse but the fact remains that if the World Champions has done their job and beaten all of us home and away we would have got at least a playoff or maybe even automatic qualification. Like you say though, we can’t rely on or blame anyone else. Still a pain in the clacker bag though. 

You're talking absolute shite. One minute you say we can't blame them then in your next sentence blame them for not doing their job. The only fact that is relevant is if we had done our job in Dublin and Tbilisi which was on WCB watch then we would have got automatic qualification 

[Bino's]

29 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

There’s no doubt that we should have got a playoff in that group but I’m not sure if it was easier than the group where Berti got second. 

We were second seeds and the third seeds were Iceland who have never beaten us (I know they would now) and were rank rotten at the time. We dropped points against the Faroes and still finished second. That’s how poor that group was. Having said that, we were never going to win the group so Berti got the best possible result so can’t really fault him for that. 

It was always going to be difficult to finish third in a group with Germany, Poland and Ireland. Germany dropping points to everyone but us didn’t help. 

We were almost guaranteed second in Berti’s group, third would have been a great result in our last Euros group. 

We should have finished third in the group ahead of Ireland

[Caledonian Craig]

Vogts was a quality manager IF he had quality to work with but he didn't. He won Euro 96 with Germany and did decently with Nigeria. However, look at the less well off nations he managed (us, Kuwait and Azerbaijan) and he struggled big time. I think he was at the wrong place at the wrong time when he managed us and we took a lot of heavy beatings in friendlies which must have knocked the players' confidence. Just think back to how the majority of Scotland fans felt when he left and you'll have a hard job finding those that were sad.

[Texas Pete]

Just now, DoonTheSlope said:

You're talking absolute shite. One minute you say we can't blame them then in your next sentence blame them for not doing their job. The only fact that is relevant is if we had done our job in Dublin and Tbilisi which was on WCB watch then we would have got automatic qualification 

You’re a charming fellow aren’t you?

I wasn’t blaming them. I just meant that if the best team in the world had done what they normally do we would probably have qualified and Strachan would have been hailed as a national hero so we were a bit unlucky in that respect. 

We don’t have anyone to blame but ourselves for failing to beat Ireland in Dublin or losing to Georgia away and can have no complaints about finishing fourth in that group.  

It is possible to recognise that we were the masters of our own downfall but could still have qualified with a bit of luck elsewhere. 

[Bino's]

1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Vogts was a quality manager IF he had quality to work with but he didn't. He won Euro 96 with Germany and did decently with Nigeria. However, look at the less well off nations he managed (us, Kuwait and Azerbaijan) and he struggled big time. I think he was at the wrong place at the wrong time when he managed us and we took a lot of heavy beatings in friendlies which must have knocked the players' confidence. Just think back to how the majority of Scotland fans felt when he left and you'll have a hard job finding those that were sad.

He was all over the place

The players seemed to go onto the park unsure of their instructions, eg Lambert Ferguson

He played Paul Dickov at right wing

He alienated our only decent centre half

Managed all that in his first couple of games

[Texas Pete]

5 minutes ago, Bino's said:

We should have finished third in the group ahead of Ireland

We definitely should have the way the group panned out. We should have beaten Georgia and I remember coming away from the game in Dublin being disappointed with a point. 

When the draw was made though I think we all thought that third would be tough but achievable. 

Second place was expected in our Euro 2004 group. 

[Caledonian Craig]

Just now, Bino's said:

He was all over the place

The players seemed to go onto the park unsure of their instructions, eg Lambert Ferguson

He played Paul Dickov at right wing

He alienated our only decent centre half

Managed all that in his first couple of games

Agreed.

He never really knew our players and was learning (or trying to) as he went and it showed. He was handing caps out like sweeties to all and sundry as he tried to unearth some undiscovered gems.

As for what he had to work with well I'd say (compared to say Strachan) he was weaker off in goal, much stronger in central defence, midfield was perhaps a fraction weaker and up front was perhaps like-for-like. However, Scotland were then second seeds so his draws were much nore qualifiable whereas in recent years we have slipped to pot three and four which ensures tougher draws.

[DoonTheSlope]

7 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

You’re a charming fellow aren’t you?

I wasn’t blaming them. I just meant that if the best team in the world had done what they normally do we would probably have qualified and Strachan would have been hailed as a national hero so we were a bit unlucky in that respect. 

We don’t have anyone to blame but ourselves for failing to beat Ireland in Dublin or losing to Georgia away and can have no complaints about finishing fourth in that group.  

It is possible to recognise that we were the masters of our own downfall but could still have qualified with a bit of luck elsewhere. 

Forget it. You're full of contradictions

[Caledonian Craig]

It is very faiir to say that be it Vogts, Smith, McLeish, Burley, Levein or Strachan each have shot themselves in the foot dropping points in matches they shouldn't have and it has cost us perhaps a play-off spot or outright qualification.

[Texas Pete]

11 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Vogts was a quality manager IF he had quality to work with but he didn't. He won Euro 96 with Germany and did decently with Nigeria. However, look at the less well off nations he managed (us, Kuwait and Azerbaijan) and he struggled big time. I think he was at the wrong place at the wrong time when he managed us and we took a lot of heavy beatings in friendlies which must have knocked the players' confidence. Just think back to how the majority of Scotland fans felt when he left and you'll have a hard job finding those that were sad.

 

6 minutes ago, Bino's said:

He was all over the place

The players seemed to go onto the park unsure of their instructions, eg Lambert Ferguson

He played Paul Dickov at right wing

He alienated our only decent centre half

Managed all that in his first couple of games

I remember thinking at the time that Vogts was an absolute shambles. The draw with the Faroes was a disgrace and we struggled to beat Lithuania at Hampden. 

He did get us a playoff though and might have got his act together if he had stayed on for another campaign. He certainly wasn’t any worse than Burley or Levein. That isn’t saying much right enough. 

[Texas Pete]

4 minutes ago, DoonTheSlope said:

Forget it. You're full of contradictions

Whatever you say mate. 

[DoonTheSlope]

For what it's worth I think the defeats in the friendlies during Berti's reign made us and most of the players stronger. Berti Vogts done what nearly everyone on here cries out for every friendly squad announcement and he tried youngsters and players who'd never been in contention but were in good form

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, Texas Pete said:

 

I remember thinking at the time that Vogts was an absolute shambles. The draw with the Faroes was a disgrace and we struggled to beat Lithuania at Hampden. 

He did get us a playoff though and might have got his act together if he had stayed on for another campaign. He certainly wasn’t any worse than Burley or Levein. That isn’t saying much right enough. 

No he certainly wasn't worse than Burley or Levein. If I had to pick one of the three to have back it would be Vogts. But I recall the Smith, McLeish and Strachan years with more fondness even though Vogts got us to a play-off as there were also some very dark nights under Vogts.

[DoonTheSlope]

2 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Whatever you say mate. 

I do say, MATE. You say we had ourselves to blame when challenged but keep continuing to say if Germany had done their jobs we'd have progressed

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, DoonTheSlope said:

For what it's worth I think the defeats in the friendlies during Berti's reign made us and most of the players stronger. Berti Vogts done what nearly everyone on here cries out for every friendly squad announcement and he tried youngsters and players who'd never been in contention but were in good form

And he also played a whole string of duds. Trial and error I know. However, it must be remembered that Vogts had no choice as there were a number of the squad he inherited who either retired or were on the brink of it.

[Texas Pete]

3 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It is very faiir to say that be it Vogts, Smith, McLeish, Burley, Levein or Strachan each have shot themselves in the foot dropping points in matches they shouldn't have and it has cost us perhaps a play-off spot or outright qualification.

It always seems to be our downfall. 

Georgia (twice), Lithuania, Macedonia etc. 

Every campaign you can almost predict the game that’s going to be our undoing. 

[Texas Pete]

1 minute ago, DoonTheSlope said:

I do say, MATE. You say we had ourselves to blame when challenged but keep continuing to say if Germany had done their jobs we'd have progressed

You on the beer? 

It’s possible to recognise that not qualifying was our own fault but that we were a bit unlucky at the same time. It’s two different things.

If you fall into a hole because you weren’t looking where you were going, it’s your own fault. If there happens to be a lion in the hole then you’re also a bit unlucky. 

We didn’t deserve to get third in that campaign but under normal circumstances we probably would have (albeit luckily). I certainly wouldn’t blame Germany for us not qualifying. Strachan and our players who shat themselves in Tbilisi were to blame.

 

[DoonTheSlope]

1 minute ago, Texas Pete said:

You on the beer? 

It’s possible to recognise that not qualifying was our own fault but that we were a bit unlucky at the same time. It’s two different things.

If you fall into a hole because you weren’t looking where you were going, it’s your own fault. If there happens to be a lion in the hole then you’re also a bit unlucky. 

We didn’t deserve to get third in that campaign but under normal circumstances we probably would have (albeit luckily). I certainly wouldn’t blame Germany for us not qualifying. Strachan and our players who shat themselves in Tbilisi were to blame.

 

Ok 

[Texas Pete]

16 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

No he certainly wasn't worse than Burley or Levein. If I had to pick one of the three to have back it would be Vogts. But I recall the Smith, McLeish and Strachan years with more fondness even though Vogts got us to a play-off as there were also some very dark nights under Vogts.

I have been following Scotland since the 80s and I think there has been at least one dark night in every campaign, Brown’s tenure included. 

Just once I’d like to go through a campaign winning all the games we’re supposed to and picking up the odd point we’re not meant to get. 

Maybe one day.