Scottish Premier League v English Championship

[Parklife]

Just now, Third Lanark said:

Yeh, but they're not Scottish!

We have plenty of capable Scottish players in our top league. McGinn, McGregor, Shinnie, Brown, Armstrong, Tierney, Gordon, Dorrans, Walker, etc. 

Every single one of these guys would be getting games for NI. Mainly because their manager isn't an arrogant feckwit who thinks that to be a decent player, you have to play in England. 

[vanderark14]

Just now, Third Lanark said:

Point is: there are not enough good Scottish players in the SPL.

 

Just now, Third Lanark said:

Point is: there are not enough good Scottish players in the SPL.

like I said to the other guy, thats utter horse shite. So all these Northern Irish lads based in the SPFL are better than their scottish counterparts?

[Diamond Scot]

7 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

 

Northern Ireland's squad is littered with SPFL players , all from outwith Celtic. They've made the playoffs and therefore have a chance of making it two tournaments in a row. Iceland play with an Aberdeen Centre back who scored in a 3-0 away win in Turkey to qualify for their 2nd tournament in a row.

The argument that the SPFL doesn't have good enough players is utter pish and always has been

Northern Ireland pick the best players available to them and they have done very well. The best players they have available to them come from lesser leagues.

 

How does that change the argument that better players play for better teams in better leagues? You would only have a point if Northern Ireland were leaving out guys playing for Stoke / West Brom etc and choosing to play guys playing for Partick and Hamilton. This isnt the case.

Its a simple premise that I would challenge anybody to actually provide an position against. 

If a player playing in Scotland for any team outside Celtic is of international class quality then why dont scouts or managers of any team in Europe and that includes England come in and pay the buttons it would cost to buy them?

Can we open our minds to the possibility that the answer is because in their professional judgement the player isnt that good. Please provide an alternative reason if you have one.

I watch Scottish league football all the time. I enjoy it for what it is but to say its players are on a similar level to the top 2 leagues in England is laughable. The odd player is but not the overall standard. 

[vanderark14]

1 minute ago, Diamond Scot said:

Northern Ireland pick the best players available to them and they have done very well. The best players they have available to them come from lesser leagues.

 

How does that change the argument that better players play for better teams in better leagues? You would only have a point if Northern Ireland were leaving out guys playing for Stoke / West Brom etc and choosing to play guys playing for Partick and Hamilton. This isnt the case.

Its a simple premise that I would challenge anybody to actually provide an position against. 

If a player playing in Scotland for any team outside Celtic is of international class quality then why dont scouts or managers of any team in Europe and that includes England come in and pay the buttons it would cost to buy them?

Can we open our minds to the possibility that the answer is because in their professional judgement the player isnt that good. Please provide an alternative reason if you have one.

I watch Scottish league football all the time. I enjoy it for what it is but to say its players are on a similar level to the top 2 leagues in England is laughable. The odd player is but not the overall standard. 

I didn't say the players in our league are ALL of the same standard are of similar level to those in England. 

you prove my point in your very first sentence yet you still don't get it.

I'll try once more - Northern Ireland pick players from the SPFL yet some how these players manage to qualify for a tournament and a playoff spot. This shows that these so called lesser players can do the business on the international stage. Theses players are doing a better job than the so called better players playing in england. 

Maybe its the way I am putting my point across, if so I apologise but I really don't get why this is so hard to understand

 

[Diamond Scot]

13 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

I didn't say the players in our league are ALL of the same standard are of similar level to those in England. 

you prove my point in your very first sentence yet you still don't get it.

I'll try once more - Northern Ireland pick players from the SPFL yet some how these players manage to qualify for a tournament and a playoff spot. This shows that these so called lesser players can do the business on the international stage. Theses players are doing a better job than the so called better players playing in england. 

Maybe its the way I am putting my point across, if so I apologise but I really don't get why this is so hard to understand

 

What so called better players are Northern Ireland leaving out to play the Spfl players?

That is was you are advocating. Leaving out Scottish players who play in the EPL to play Scottish players who play in the Spfl. 

As I have said, The Spfl has the odd good player and clearly these players can do a job in certain circumstances however better players play in better leagues and better players managed properly with the right attitude will be a better team. 

We have the option of playing guys who play at a higher standard but you want us to play guys who play at a lower standard. Northern Ireland dont have the option.

Do Italy select players from Seria B, Spain from Liga 2 etc etc. No, they pick players from the best leagues.

How many Belgium players play their football in Belgium? Why dont Belgium pick the leading players from Club Brugge over guys playing for Everton for example?

[Parklife]

Just now, Diamond Scot said:

What so called better players are Northern Ireland leaving out to play the Spfl players?

That is was you are advocating. Leaving out Scottish players who play in the EPL to play Scottish players who play in the Spfl. 

As I have said, The Spfl has the odd good player and clearly these players can do a job in certain circumstances however better players play in better leagues and better players managed properly with the right attitude will be a better team. 

We have the option of playing guys who play at a higher standard but you want us to play guys who play at a lower standard. Northern Ireland dont have the option.

Do Italy select players from Seria B, Spain from Liga 2 etc etc. No, they pick players from the best leagues.

How many Belgium players play their football in Belgium? Why dont Belgium pick the leading players from Club Brugge over guys playing for Everton for example?

No, he wants us to drop the players who have proven that they will not deliver the goods for us and give guys who are performing well in teh Scottish league a chance. 

It's all very well saying "Matt Phillips/Barry Bannan play at a higher level than John McGinn/Callum McGregor" but we've seen these guys get plenty chances and consistently fail to deliver. Should we just keep playing them because "if John McGinn was any good, someone would buy him for buttons"? 

What kind of fecking logic is that?  

[Diamond Scot]

1 hour ago, Parklife said:

No, he wants us to drop the players who have proven that they will not deliver the goods for us and give guys who are performing well in teh Scottish league a chance. 

It's all very well saying "Matt Phillips/Barry Bannan play at a higher level than John McGinn/Callum McGregor" but we've seen these guys get plenty chances and consistently fail to deliver. Should we just keep playing them because "if John McGinn was any good, someone would buy him for buttons"? 

What kind of fecking logic is that?  

Matt Phillips has 8 caps for Scotland. 5 of these in competitive matches. His record in these matches are played 5. Won 3, drawn 1, lost 1.  Id suggest that that record is quite good. Under no circumstances can it be described as not delivering the goods. 

How can he consistently fail to deliver when he has only played 8 times. I repeat 8 times!!!! 1 competitive defeat!!! If we dropped players who got defeated once then it wont be long before I get a call up.

 Bannan has 25 caps. 13 in competitive matches. 8 wins, 2 draws and 3 defeats. The 3 defeats were to Spain, Germany and Slovakia.  All of the defeats were away from home.

Good point well made though. Get them both out!!!

[Parklife]

58 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Matt Phillips has 8 caps for Scotland. 5 of these in competitive matches. His record in these matches are played 5. Won 3, drawn 1, lost 1.  Id suggest that that record is quite good. Under no circumstances can it be described as not delivering the goods. 

How can he consistently fail to deliver when he has only played 8 times. I repeat 8 times!!!! 1 competitive defeat!!! If we dropped players who got defeated once then it wont be long before I get a call up.

 Bannan has 25 caps. 13 in competitive matches. 8 wins, 2 draws and 3 defeats. The 3 defeats were to Spain, Germany and Slovakia.  All of the defeats were away from home.

Good point well made though. Get them both out!!!

Using team results to try and claim individuals have played well? Some seriously flawed logic there.  

How many goals/assists have those two delivered in their combined 33 games? 

[mccaughey85]

Ppl who think spl players outwith Celtics would of done a better job are deluding themselves, Darren Fletcher is a better player than any midfielder bar Celtics. The spl players are not good enough for international football, this is shown by the failure of Scottish teams in Europe. If a player is playing in the epl every week he should be in our first team imo. Guys like Ritchie and fraser are a level above the spl(bar Celtic) players. As for the english championship there is an argument that we should not rely too much on players in that league as it is not a great standard. We should only be picking two or three players from there imo. 

 

[Parklife]

8 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Ppl who think spl players outwith Celtics would of done a better job are deluding themselves, Darren Fletcher is a better player than any midfielder bar Celtics. The spl players are not good enough for international football, this is shown by the failure of Scottish teams in Europe. If a player is playing in the epl every week he should be in our first team imo. Guys like Ritchie and fraser are a level above the spl(bar Celtic) players. As for the english championship there is an argument that we should not rely too much on players in that league as it is not a great standard. We should only be picking two or three players from there imo. 

 

Ritchie  

[wheres the pies]

Just now, Parklife said:

Ritchie  

Seriously parkie Matt Ritchie was sticking all last season for Newcastle umpteen man of the match awards last season and was he no the mom against Liverpool the other week 

[mccaughey85]

1 minute ago, Parklife said:

Ritchie  

 

You are laughing but the guys performed  consistently at a higher level than any of our other wingers. Can you name me 2 or 3 Scottish wingers who consistently perform in a top league. If not then we don't have the luxury of dismissing him.

[Parklife]

1 minute ago, wheres the pies said:

Seriously parkie Matt Ritchie was sticking all last season for Newcastle umpteen man of the match awards last season and was he no the mom against Liverpool the other week 

Dunno. He’s looked like a Sunday league player in most of his appearances for us. I actually think my maw could out pace him. 

[mccaughey85]

10 minutes ago, Parklife said:

Dunno. He’s looked like a Sunday league player in most of his appearances for us. I actually think my maw could out pace him. 

He's not first team but he certainly is a better option than alot of others, our wingers imo should be Forrest, burke, Phillips, ritchie, Fraser. I would start Forrest and fraser. Ritchie has had some decent games for us but admittedly he's been poor in alot as well but then so have many of our players so it comes done to who would necessarily do better. I can't name many outwith the names above who are better options than him.

Edited October 9, 2017 by mccaughey85
Grammar

[Malcolm]

Do people honestly believe that the likes of Partick thistle would be any better than English league 1?  I'd be happy for our team to be picked from the likes of Kilmarnock or dundee Utd if they were getting far in European competition.  Not getting put out by teams from Malta and Luxembourg.  There is no way on earth you will convince me that ON AVERAGE a scot playing in the EPL is likely to be better than a Scottish player out with Celtic in the spl.  

[Diamond Scot]

3 hours ago, Parklife said:

Using team results to try and claim individuals have played well? Some seriously flawed logic there.  

How many goals/assists have those two delivered in their combined 33 games? 

Its not logic, its fact. 

Go and look at some of the teams we have beat in competitive games when they have been playing. Are you trying to say we could beat those teams effectively a man down? If thats the case then the other 10 players cant have consistently failed to deliver as you suggest. Your logic doesnt stand up to facts.

But instead of asking me another question how about you answer mine first. Is 8 caps, 5 of which come in competitive games with only 1 loss consistently failing to deliver?

Is only losing 3 games in 13 competitive games all away to Germany Spain and Slovakia and being in the team that beats Croatia home and away amongst others consistently failing to deliver?

If it is then we all might as well give up.

[KirkieRobRoy]

Tam McManus (no, don't laugh, hear me out) making some of the main points about the mad worship of English football and how it has influenced Strachan's selections.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/15583726.Tam_McManus__Scotland_had_the_players_to_qualify_but_Gordon_Strachan_didn__39_t_use_them_properly_____his_time_is_up/

Weak point in his argument is not having a clue who to replace Strachan with.

[Parklife]

7 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Its not logic, its fact. 

Go and look at some of the teams we have beat in competitive games when they have been playing. Are you trying to say we could beat those teams effectively a man down? If thats the case then the other 10 players cant have consistently failed to deliver as you suggest. Your logic doesnt stand up to facts.

But instead of asking me another question how about you answer mine first. Is 8 caps, 5 of which come in competitive games with only 1 loss consistently failing to deliver?

Is only losing 3 games in 13 competitive games all away to Germany Spain and Slovakia and being in the team that beats Croatia home and away amongst others consistently failing to deliver?

If it is then we all might as well give up.

It’s a deeply flawed way of assessing individual performance. Hence my query on what direct contributions these guys have made. Matt Phillips for example was a waste of shirt in the last two matches, yet we got 4 points. Which shows how flawed your way of thinking is. 

[sbcmfc]

Some weird lines of argument in this thread.

Based on which I can only assume Sheffield Wednesday are competing in the champions league, and David Clarkson is better than Kenny Dalglish.

[vanderark14]

9 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Do people honestly believe that the likes of Partick thistle would be any better than English league 1?  I'd be happy for our team to be picked from the likes of Kilmarnock or dundee Utd if they were getting far in European competition.  Not getting put out by teams from Malta and Luxembourg.  There is no way on earth you will convince me that ON AVERAGE a scot playing in the EPL is likely to be better than a Scottish player out with Celtic in the spl.  

Who said anything about Partick being better than anyone in England, you seem to have picked up a point nobody made.

Everyone agrees that the standard of player in these higher paid leagues is mostly better but that doesn’t mean there aren’t good enough players in our league. Playing for an English side doesn’t automaticalky mean a player is better overnight. I’d have John mcginn, James Forrest and Callum mcgregor over Phillips, MacArthur and bannan any day of the week.

[vanderark14]

14 hours ago, Parklife said:

No, he wants us to drop the players who have proven that they will not deliver the goods for us and give guys who are performing well in teh Scottish league a chance. 

It's all very well saying "Matt Phillips/Barry Bannan play at a higher level than John McGinn/Callum McGregor" but we've seen these guys get plenty chances and consistently fail to deliver. Should we just keep playing them because "if John McGinn was any good, someone would buy him for buttons"? 

What kind of fecking logic is that?  

There’s is evidence of players in our shitty league doing the business’s for Scotland whe. The super duper epl and championship players failed. Strachan finally stopped picking mid table shite like Morrison, Martin, and Naismith in favour of Armstrong and Griffiths.............look what happened.