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Ally Bongo

Catalonia & the UK media blackout of events

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9 minutes ago, ironbrew said:

I know some Policia Nacional and maybe Guardia Civil have been moved into Catalonia ( some staying on a cruiseship in Barcelona) but I was questioning that Catalan police force had replaced Guardia Civil and Policia Nacional since both forces are just as present in Catalonia as anywhere else in Spain and both have thousands of Catalan members. Also not all members of the Mossos are Catalan. In effect the three forces work together and are colleagues. I haven`t seen any of the multile footage you mention, just a few incidents where in moments of tension words have been exchanged . Reading the Spanish  (including Catalan) press I get the impression both sides of the divide seem to want to demonstrate that Mossos  have in some way been disloyal to Spain (Spanish centralist attitude) or pally with independence supporters (Catalan independence attitude) but in fact reality is probably that 95% of Mossos contributed in making voting difficult or impossible and got on with their jobs just like police officers anywhere else in Europe.  There is also footage of Mossos hugging Policia Nacional and exchanging phone numbers as Policia Nacional left their hotels and reports of hundreds of Mossos applying to join the Policia Nacional even though it would  mean a significant drop in salary. Would imagine last bit is invented or at least exaggerated but I haven`t read or heard anything to suggest that Catalan police are all rabid anti Spanish independence supporters either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossos_d'Esquadra

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Civil War gets closer by the day

Wonder how the EU will respond now

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17 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Ok. So Mossos do some of the work GC do in rest of Spain but GC  still do immigration control and some other duties in Catalonia? In the rest of Spain they mainly do traffic control in rural areas and are rarely seen in cities.  There were certainly reports of children of GC being bullied at Catalan schools after October 1st and GC barracks near schools were mentioned.

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4 hours ago, Stapes said:

That Tim Willcox is another in a long line of BBC bawbags. At least pretend to be impartial.

What did he say? I`ve looked at BBC News website and their reports on Catalonia situation in last month seem fair from what I know about Spain (no expert but have lived in Spain as well as numerous short visits for work and pleasure). If anything they give more credibility to those getting headlines for leading Catalan independence move than I`d expect.  This thread started about press coverage of Catalonia situation. Hopefully Catalan press will give fair coverage of what happens in Catalonia  in the next six months before Catalan elections are planned. Many of us were annoyed about press  coverage from BBC and Scottish press  before our referendum but situation in Catalonia seems to be  very different at least within Catalonia with numerous complaints about bias on TV3 and Catalan radio from public and journalists that have worked there. Ironically, decades of working for independence using press, schools etc may finally not work while in Scotland we may yet achieve independence without pressurising children and press (maybe not possible iwithin Scottish press anyway?)

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The RTE news bod tonight was saying that Puigdemont might formally declare independence and dissolve parliament, meaning immediate elections. Go for it i say. Stop f**king about.

Edited by Dave78

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37 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

The RTE news bod tonight was saying that Puigdemont might formally declare independence and dissolve parliament, meaning immediate elections. Go for it i say. Stop f**king about.

How would new Catalan elections help Puigdemont? His party and pro independence  allies won last Catalan elections with total of 47% of votes . They could repeat  that or even get higher share of vote assuming allies stick with them but even then vote would only be at regional level like elections in Canaries or Extremadura for example. Declaration of independence won`t be recognised by any country with any weight internationally or EU, NATO (Catalonia has no military forces anyway) or other organisations unless a real referendum is organised and held (that would take years/decades to organise since October 1st offered no guarantees whatsoever-people voting several times etc). Very hard to know what is going to happen but beginning to look like divide and conquer tactics of present Catalan independence group have  been a mistake or at best will mean an independent Catalonia with little or no recognition from outside.

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1 minute ago, ironbrew said:

How would new Catalan elections help Puigdemont? His party and pro independence  allies won last Catalan elections with total of 47% of votes . They could repeat  that or even get higher share of vote assuming allies stick with them but even then vote would only be at regional level like elections in Canaries or Extremadura for example. Declaration of independence won`t be recognised by any country with any weight internationally or EU, NATO (Catalonia has no military forces anyway) or other organisations unless a real referendum is organised and held (that would take years/decades to organise since October 1st offered no guarantees whatsoever-people voting several times etc). Very hard to know what is going to happen but beginning to look like divide and conquer tactics of present Catalan independence group have  been a mistake or at best will mean an independent Catalonia with little or no recognition from outside.

I'm pretty sure i'm not as well versed in the Catalan situation as yourself, but i'd imagine by doing so he'd maintain the initiative. I may have this wrong, but does article 155 not allow 6 months before elections must take place? I'd imagine Rajoy will want the dust to settle and the blood of Catalan voters to be washed out of their clothes before the country goes to the polls. Immediate elections would suit Puigdemont, no?

This whole situation can be resolved by Madrid allowing an official referendum. They either believe in the self-determination of all nations or they don't.

 

 

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Going to Barcelona on Tuesday so will be able to "tick off" another new country - assuming the new Republic of Catalonia lasts that long. 

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On 21/10/2017 at 11:42 PM, Dave78 said:

I'm pretty sure i'm not as well versed in the Catalan situation as yourself, but i'd imagine by doing so he'd maintain the initiative. I may have this wrong, but does article 155 not allow 6 months before elections must take place? I'd imagine Rajoy will want the dust to settle and the blood of Catalan voters to be washed out of their clothes before the country goes to the polls. Immediate elections would suit Puigdemont, no?

This whole situation can be resolved by Madrid allowing an official referendum. They either believe in the self-determination of all nations or they don't.

 

 

Madrid would tell you that it doesn't recognise Catalonia as a nation state rather a region and would point to the profound effect a breakaway would have on the rest of Spain. We have two very poor leaders at play here who have brought their country to the brink of ruin.

I would very much like the Catalans to have their independence if a majority of them want it. Unfortunately there's no hard evidence that is the case. Rajoy and Pudgiemont have backed themselves into a corner and the best we can all hope for is that they find a peaceful way out......but this could get very messy!

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53 minutes ago, slasher said:

 

I would very much like the Catalans to have their independence if a majority of them want it. Unfortunately there's no hard evidence that is the case. Rajoy and Pudgiemont have backed themselves into a corner and the best we can all hope for is that they find a peaceful way out......but this could get very messy!

I don't know. 

 

The confiscated ballots are the problem another 770,000 votes. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/11/catalonias-suspended-declaration-of-independence-what-happens-next

That would be 60% turnout. Taking the narrative only nats would turn out. You'd assume similar distribution to the counted votes. And assuming similar yes, no, blank you'd have 2732472 yes out of an electorate of 5313564 which is 51% that's if the entire population voted. 

 

Or 

 

If you assume all 770000 missing were no you'd have a 60+% turnout with  32% no and 68% yes. 

 

Or as stated above you'd need a 77% turnout with every other vote as a no. 

 

Which ever way it is cut I am more of the opinion there is a majority sentiment for independence. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, flumax said:

 

Which ever way it is cut I am more of the opinion there is a majority sentiment for independence. 

 

 

I agree. Why else would Madrid be feart to test it in an official referendum?

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16 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

I agree. Why else would Madrid be feart to test it in an official referendum?

I'm not sure support for independence before the 1st October was any better than 47% but of course Madrid's heavy handedness may have tipped the balance the other way. Until there's some form of compromise which allows a proper debate and vote we'll never know.

Madrid are more likely now than ever to crush this by whatever means necessary and it seems that the EU will stand by and watch. If anything this has made me wonder about Scotland being part of this sham if we ever get our independence.

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On 10/21/2017 at 1:44 PM, Ally Bongo said:

Civil War gets closer by the day

Wonder how the EU will respond now

im convinced there'll be another war in europe in my lifetime

didnt expect it to be in spain tho

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7 minutes ago, dan cake said:

im convinced there'll be another war in europe in my lifetime

didnt expect it to be in spain tho

Where were you expecting it, just out of interest?

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9 minutes ago, slasher said:

Where were you expecting it, just out of interest?

russia v all the states the ussr lost and white france v black france were my favourites

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On 27/10/2017 at 6:38 PM, Dave78 said:

I agree. Why else would Madrid be feart to test it in an official referendum?

Guessing here but maybe because they don`t want referendum in other regions of Spain. Or don`t want more financial problems which might affect all of Spain. SEAT factory alone is 17000 jobs.

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Puigdemont has now apparently fled to Brussels. He's already come across as bumbling and indecisive, we can now add cowardly to the list.

The people of Catalonia deserve much better 😥

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35 minutes ago, slasher said:

Puigdemont has now apparently fled to Brussels. He's already come across as bumbling and indecisive, we can now add cowardly to the list.

The people of Catalonia deserve much better 😥

Charles De Gaulle fled, and if he hadn't we'd have an American state in Europe after world war II. Let it all play out till we start pinning badges on folk.

 

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