Catalonia & the UK media blackout of events

[slasher]

39 minutes ago, phart said:

Charles De Gaulle fled, and if he hadn't we'd have an American state in Europe after world war II. Let it all play out till we start pinning badges on folk.

 

Fair enough but I'd wager Puigdemont is no De Gaulle 😏

[Alibi]

Looks like there will be a Catalan government in exile.  Better than a Catalan government in jail.

How can they have fair elections when Madrid is oppressing people?  What do they do if the elections return another big indy majority?

Nice to see Real Madrid get gubbed by Girona the other night.  A metaphor...

[PapofGlencoe]

22 hours ago, slasher said:

Puigdemont has now apparently fled to Brussels. He's already come across as bumbling and indecisive, we can now add cowardly to the list.

The people of Catalonia deserve much better 😥

I really don't see that at all.  

His mandate comes from the Catalan people.  He is only taking, as he sees it genuinely, the majority will of the Catalan people.  

I know this is complicated but I've yet to hear a credible argument that there is not a majority without some clever number play.

He and everyone else knows the declaration is not the end of the matter (he is not the CUP).  This is about putting international pressure to get a legitimate vote or other democratic solution to a legitimate political opinion.

He's hardly running away,  he's being threatened with 25 years in prison.  He can't discharge any duty at all from a prison cell.

Edited October 31, 2017 by PapofGlencoe

[slasher]

28 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I really don't see that at all.  

His mandate comes from the Catalan people.  He is only taking, as he sees it genuinely, the majority will of the Catalan people.  

I know this is complicated but I've yet to hear a credible argument that there is not a majority without some clever number play.

He and everyone else knows the declaration is not the end of the matter (he is not the CUP).  This is about putting international pressure to get a legitimate vote or other democratic solution to a legitimate political opinion.

He's hardly running away,  he's being threatened with 25 years in prison.  He can't discharge any duty at all from a prison cell.

No one can say with any clarity how support for independence sits in Catalonia right now. Needless to say I think any vote would be close.

Puigdemont is guilty of poor leadership in my opinion as is Rajoy. So far Puigdemont has fudged the initial declaration of independence, disappointing millions of people. He then changed his mind on calling elections ( a mistake in my view) and then after declaring he would be at his desk on Monday and encouraging a campaign of civil disobedience he fecks off to Brussels!

Let me say again I'm in favour of self determination for Catalonia if that's the will of the people but they're going to need far more strength from their leader than Puigdemont provides.  I think his arrest and subsequent trial would hurt Spain and aid Catalonia's hope for outside intervention from the international community far more than leading any powerless 'government in exile.' Easy for me to say but momentous challenges like this require big cojones!

[Alibi]

I assume Puigdemont has some sort of strategy.  He doesn't really come across as an inspiring leader but he's in a difficult situation when even countries that came into being through UDI (Ireland ffs; USA) are turning their backs on Catalonia.

Gerard Pique should stand in the election.  Let's see them try to arrest him...

[slasher]

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

I assume Puigdemont has some sort of strategy.  He doesn't really come across as an inspiring leader but he's in a difficult situation when even countries that came into being through UDI (Ireland ffs; USA) are turning their backs on Catalonia.

Gerard Pique should stand in the election.  Let's see them try to arrest him...

I'm sure he does, but the problem with Puigdemont is he's as likely to change his mind about it tomorrow morning. He runs the risk of fracturing the independence movement.

At the moment Madrid is banking on reality taking hold. It's all very well being a weekend rebel but what you gonna do on a Monday morning? Withdraw your labour and sit at home with not a pot to piss in waiting for the revolution to take hold? How many of us would do the same if it were here?

Rajoy is an authoritarian rat but he holds most of the cards here and Puigdemont's departure for Brussels has merely strengthened his hand imo.

[Eisegerwind]

3 hours ago, slasher said:

I'm sure he does, but the problem with Puigdemont is he's as likely to change his mind about it tomorrow morning. He runs the risk of fracturing the independence movement.

At the moment Madrid is banking on reality taking hold. It's all very well being a weekend rebel but what you gonna do on a Monday morning? Withdraw your labour and sit at home with not a pot to piss in waiting for the revolution to take hold? How many of us would do the same if it were here?

Rajoy is an authoritarian rat but he holds most of the cards here and Puigdemont's departure for Brussels has merely strengthened his hand imo.

Yes, well sometimes the 'revolution' might hurt a bit short term, and it's still to be seen how much pain the Catalonians are prepared to go through, but you never know they might show some courage and see it through.

Obviously we (Scottish) wouldn't as we've already shown ourselves to have absolutely no bottle and wouldn't see our  'legal revolution' through cos we were told our messages might cost a bit more after the  'revolution'.

[DonnyTJS]

8 hours ago, Alibi said:

I assume Puigdemont has some sort of strategy.  He doesn't really come across as an inspiring leader but he's in a difficult situation when even countries that came into being through UDI (Ireland ffs; USA) are turning their backs on Catalonia.

Gerard Pique should stand in the election.  Let's see them try to arrest him...

Has the Scottish government said anything since mid-September?

[Flure]

51 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Has the Scottish government said anything since mid-September?

About.......?

[DonnyTJS]

14 minutes ago, Flure said:

About.......?

About the Brazilian 'Black Power' toilet-paper scandal ...

I also wondered if anything further had been said about the current Spanish constitutional crisis. A quick search throws up a Government statement on 19 September, but things have moved on a little since then. I wondered if Nicola or others had been asked questions in interviews more recently and how, if so, they were fielding it. The Irish foreign ministry, mentioned by Alibi, last made a statement on October 27.

 

[Flure]

https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia-1

 

[Flure]

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15571643.Nicola_Sturgeon_says_2_million_Catalan_votes_for_independence_cannot_be_ignored/

[DonnyTJS]

Thanks Flure.

[PapofGlencoe]

On 10/31/2017 at 1:16 PM, slasher said:

No one can say with any clarity how support for independence sits in Catalonia right now. Needless to say I think any vote would be close.

Puigdemont is guilty of poor leadership in my opinion as is Rajoy. So far Puigdemont has fudged the initial declaration of independence, disappointing millions of people. He then changed his mind on calling elections ( a mistake in my view) and then after declaring he would be at his desk on Monday and encouraging a campaign of civil disobedience he fecks off to Brussels!

Let me say again I'm in favour of self determination for Catalonia if that's the will of the people but they're going to need far more strength from their leader than Puigdemont provides.  I think his arrest and subsequent trial would hurt Spain and aid Catalonia's hope for outside intervention from the international community far more than leading any powerless 'government in exile.' Easy for me to say but momentous challenges like this require big cojones!

I really don't agree but fair enough.  I agree he's had to make decisions but I don't follow how he had space to take any other path.  I wouldn't cast having to make decisions as indecision.  There has not been black and white options available morally or otherwise.

I think it's more probable than not there is a majority based on the evidence I've seen.  Of course it would be close..

I think Puigdemont and the other catalan leaders hoped there would be more international support to the idea of a legal referendum off the back of the 1 Oct results.  If they had achieved a pitiful number there would have been no decisions to make. He's had to make tactical decisions on a moving scene that involves EU and other leaders requesting dialogue.  I think he's more or less got it right.

After the vote he could have called UDI.  He didn't.  He delayed it as much as possible to get international pressure.  I think this was morally correct and strategically correct.  

To declare UDI immediately after that vote would have lost any international support.

To not declare it after the Jordis and 155 would have lost initiative for the independence vote.

To stay in Barcelona domesticates the argument.  And leaves him open to prison.  He can say plenty from Brussels.

 

 

Having listened to him I think he comes across fairly humble and I think he just wants a legal vote to let the catalans decide properly.  Whatever tactic is necessary to get there.  Junqueras has said he's willing to go to Jail for his beliefs as are some of the others.  I think it's easy to talk about cajones.  They're going to Madrid and being threatened with jail.  I think they've shown enough defiance and remarkable restraint.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by PapofGlencoe

[aaid]

Writing this in the departure lounge at Barcelona airport on the way back from a couple if days in the fledging republic.  

TBH, if you weren't aware previously of the situation you would be hard pressed to notice anything particularly out of the ordinary, there are no tanks parked on Plaza Catalunya.   

Get the general sense that people are just getting on with it and waiting to see what happens.  Lots and lots of Catalan flags and Si banners on display from the balconies as you walk about, a few Spanish flags but very much in the minority.  

i wouldn't read anything into that though as similar to Scotland, the No side are a lot more reticent.

A bit of increased police presence around government buildings but nothing that outrageous, especially as yesterday was a public holiday.   The building with the most serious looking security funnily enough was what I think was the offices of the Spanish government in Barcelona, a bit like St Andrews House in Edinburgh. 

[slasher]

2 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I really don't agree but fair enough.  I agree he's had to make decisions but I don't follow how he had space to take any other path.  I wouldn't cast having to make decisions as indecision.  There has not been black and white options available morally or otherwise.

I think it's more probable than not there is a majority based on the evidence I've seen.  Of course it would be close..

I think Puigdemont and the other catalan leaders hoped there would be more international support to the idea of a legal referendum off the back of the 1 Oct results.  If they had achieved a pitiful number there would have been no decisions to make. He's had to make tactical decisions on a moving scene that involves EU and other leaders requesting dialogue.  I think he's more or less got it right.

After the vote he could have called UDI.  He didn't.  He delayed it as much as possible to get international pressure.  I think this was morally correct and strategically correct.  

To declare UDI immediately after that vote would have lost any international support.

To not declare it after the Jordis and 155 would have lost initiative for the independence vote.

To stay in Barcelona domesticates the argument.  And leaves him open to prison.  He can say plenty from Brussels.

 

 

Having listened to him I think he comes across fairly humble and I think he just wants a legal vote to let the catalans decide properly.  Whatever tactic is necessary to get there.  Junqueras has said he's willing to go to Jail for his beliefs as are some of the others.  I think it's easy to talk about cajones.  They're going to Madrid and being threatened with jail.  I think they've shown enough defiance and remarkable restraint.

 

Yip, I get things were fluid and fast moving the other week and I don't doubt his sincerity. However he has at best been guilty of sending out mixed signals and it hasn't gone unnoticed by his coalition partners.

The vote in December should give us more clarity on where the people stand on independence, especially if the yes side stand on a UDI ticket. A clear majority in favour would surely end any dubiety on a mandate. It'll be interesting to see whether it's the carrot or stick approach from Madrid over the next few weeks. Maybe they'll love bomb them now or will it be more threats and intimidation?

@aaid's post is interesting as it ties in with what I suspected about things getting back to some sort of normality. The genie was out the bottle for a while there but Madrid are trying to force it back in and you can't help but feel a bit of momentum has been lost. Anyway, I find it all very interesting having friends over there on both sides of the debate and of course there's the obvious parallels with Scotland. Let's just hope it's all resolved peacefully. 👍

[Grim Jim]

Liz Castro's view of Puigdemont’s exile among other things here...

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/10/31/saving-the-republic/

Quote

Because what is the only way to keep the Catalan Republic alive, without engaging in any physical struggles over offices or buildings, or pitting rival police corps against each other, while at the same time beginning the legal and diplomatic battles to ensure the Republic’s legitimacy and international recognition? You leave your home in Catalonia and go to Belgium, which incidentally has offered you political asylum.

 

[aaid]

Good article here from Colm Toibin

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/nov/03/colm-toibin-catalonia-independent-state-point-of-view?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[Alan]

Sturgeon, Swinney and Hyslop did not support Catalan movement despite direct appeals from their leadership. The political custard pie.

[Ally Bongo]

32 minutes ago, Alan said:

Sturgeon, Swinney and Hyslop did not support Catalan movement despite direct appeals from their leadership. The political custard pie.

Is it aye

That will be the Scotland that has no power to support or recognize the Catalan Government ?

You know - The Scotland that you prefer to be subjugated by England 

That Scotland ?

[Toepoke]

Man of the people Brian Wilson celebrates the detainment of elected members...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/brian-wilson-lesson-for-scotland-in-this-attempt-at-catalan-tyranny-1-4603104/amp

 

[Parklife]

1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said:

That will be the Scotland that has no power to support or recognize the Catalan Government ?

People in the Scottish Government have no power to speak publicly?  

[PapofGlencoe]

11 minutes ago, Parklife said:

People in the Scottish Government have no power to speak publicly?  

To be fair i think it is difficult to completely recognise it as an independent state and i'm sympathetic to the Catalan right to decide.  I think it's extremely probable there is a majority (just) but need a bit more than 'probable' to start recognising independent states.

I think Sturgeon's comments have been correct up to this point.

And Scots Govt has spoken publically in favour of their right to decide.  It's all over the Spanish press. 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by PapofGlencoe

[PapofGlencoe]

23 hours ago, slasher said:

Yip, I get things were fluid and fast moving the other week and I don't doubt his sincerity. However he has at best been guilty of sending out mixed signals and it hasn't gone unnoticed by his coalition partners.

The vote in December should give us more clarity on where the people stand on independence, especially if the yes side stand on a UDI ticket. A clear majority in favour would surely end any dubiety on a mandate. It'll be interesting to see whether it's the carrot or stick approach from Madrid over the next few weeks. Maybe they'll love bomb them now or will it be more threats and intimidation?

@aaid's post is interesting as it ties in with what I suspected about things getting back to some sort of normality. The genie was out the bottle for a while there but Madrid are trying to force it back in and you can't help but feel a bit of momentum has been lost. Anyway, I find it all very interesting having friends over there on both sides of the debate and of course there's the obvious parallels with Scotland. Let's just hope it's all resolved peacefully. 👍

Absolutely.  I also have links to the area too and peaceful coexistence is the most important thing.  

I don't see how they could pretend a lovebomb now.  It's not really a fair election if your candidates are in jail.  How can they plan a reasonable vote in such circumstances?

I really don't get the ambiguity among many people.   I love Spain and few Spanish people I know think Madrid has handled this well.  I've not watched/read much of the British press on this issue - rather only the Spanish but it seems to me there's a clear lack of leadership when your jailing political opponents.  i mean, a bit of tactical indecision from Carles Puigdemont is not on the moral level as Rajoy's, in my view.  Declaring UDI was a tactic that can be debated, unregognised or accepted by the populace.  Flinging folk in jail is quite another.

 

[slasher]

10 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Absolutely.  I also have links to the area too and peaceful coexistence is the most important thing.  

I don't see how they could pretend a lovebomb now.  It's not really a fair election if your candidates are in jail.  How can they plan a reasonable vote in such circumstances?

I really don't get the ambiguity among many people.   I love Spain and few Spanish people I know think Madrid has handled this well.  I've not watched/read much of the British press on this issue - rather only the Spanish but it seems to me there's a clear lack of leadership when your jailing political opponents.  i mean, a bit of tactical indecision from Carles Puigdemont is not on the moral level as Rajoy's, in my view.  Declaring UDI was a tactic that can be debated, unregognised or accepted by the populace.  Flinging folk in jail is quite another.

 

In terms of the 'lovebomb' I was wondering if they might offer to repeal some of the power grab they've been on since 2006. However the arrests over the last 24 hours would seem to indicate that's unlikely. You would think someone might be advising Rajoy that his hard-line approach is having the opposite from desired effect.

The EU have been utterly spineless and I'm bitterly disappointed with its attitude. As regards recognising the Catalan Republic I would think a number of countries are itching to do it, but a clearer mandate from the people is needed. Perhaps 21st December will provide that.