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3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Not sure. The Galileo Satellite System run by the EU gives mobile phones the GPS they use. I'd imagine the mobile network will be fine but GPS may not be so polished or readily available.

So the Brexiteers won't be able to use their GPS and a torch to find their own arses then? 

😂😂😂

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On 2/15/2019 at 1:55 PM, Barney Rubble said:

Stop being a fud Alan.

Indyref2 will be for the Scottish electorate to vote for independence to make our own decisions about what's best for Scotland.

Why shouldn't we take charge of that responsibility?

That's exactly what the Leave campaign said. Take Back Control. And it's nuts.  The world, life, politics, trade is so much more complicated than right and wrong choices or black and white choices.  Scotland inside or outside UK, EU whatever will still be impacted by forces, politicians, economics, social changes which the Scottish electorate will have little influence on. 

Nationalisms create lies in any country.  The White Paper is so dated Andrew Wilson brought out his report which proves financially independence would hit Scotland as Brexit will hit the UK and it's now a bad smell the SNP don't really like to talk about.

Exile said we'll get a different deal with an indy Scotland going to the EU.  I think i heard Leave say that about brexit and Scotland will have a weak hand to play, even weaker than UK.  Fabrication bordering on lies along with the 90% of rules made by Westminster.

The thing that genuinely amazes me is UK had a superb deal in the EU.  No €uro. No schengen. Rebate. Bigger player than other countries.  I donated, campaigned and voted Remain even as a soft eurosceptic.  The EU have really disappointed me in their dealings lacking class and diplomacy though and I do worry about EU as they live in a bubble ignoring populism and demands in countries like Italy, Hungary, Poland even Denmark and Sweden with increasing nationalism and anti immigration.

At the moment across the world nuance, debate and middle ground is squeezed by nationalism and politics that were historically on the fringes and the rise of social media has been a big part of that.  Opponents are denigrated and put down even when if you sit together you'd probably agree on 80% of views.

I don't post on here as much because it's an echo chamber and it's obvious who will jump right in straight away but more importantly I have a job, family with 2 kids and very spare time so it's baffling how long people can spend on here.  Constantly.  And rarely talk about Scottish football.

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3 minutes ago, Alan said:

That's exactly what the Leave campaign said. Take Back Control. And it's nuts.  The world, life, politics, trade is so much more complicated than right and wrong choices or black and white choices.  Scotland inside or outside UK, EU whatever will still be impacted by forces, politicians, economics, social changes which the Scottish electorate will have little influence on. 

Nationalisms create lies in any country.  The White Paper is so dated Andrew Wilson brought out his report which proves financially independence would hit Scotland as Brexit will hit the UK and it's now a bad smell the SNP don't really like to talk about.

Exile said we'll get a different deal with an indy Scotland going to the EU.  I think i heard Leave say that about brexit and Scotland will have a weak hand to play, even weaker than UK.  Fabrication bordering on lies along with the 90% of rules made by Westminster.

The thing that genuinely amazes me is UK had a superb deal in the EU.  No €uro. No schengen. Rebate. Bigger player than other countries.  I donated, campaigned and voted Remain even as a soft eurosceptic.  The EU have really disappointed me in their dealings lacking class and diplomacy though and I do worry about EU as they live in a bubble ignoring populism and demands in countries like Italy, Hungary, Poland even Denmark and Sweden with increasing nationalism and anti immigration.

At the moment across the world nuance, debate and middle ground is squeezed by nationalism and politics that were historically on the fringes and the rise of social media has been a big part of that.  Opponents are denigrated and put down even when if you sit together you'd probably agree on 80% of views.

I don't post on here as much because it's an echo chamber and it's obvious who will jump right in straight away but more importantly I have a job, family with 2 kids and very spare time so it's baffling how long people can spend on here.  Constantly.  And rarely talk about Scottish football.

Not many will say this but good post, not that I agree with all of it. 

Nationalism itself doesn’t create lies, that’s just politics and the people who aim to control others. 

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50 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Not many will say this but good post, not that I agree with all of it. 

Nationalism itself doesn’t create lies, that’s just politics and the people who aim to control others. 

If only he had bothered to address the elephant in the room which is the democratic deficit of Scotland being tied to Westminster

If only he had bothered to distinguish between Nationalism and Political Independence

What is more baffling is that many "Scots" (and i use that term loosely) still think being ruled by another Nation, or more appropriately being over ruled, is better than making our own decisions

DznBqAFXQAEHJf5.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

If only he had bothered to address the elephant in the room which is the democratic deficit of Scotland being tied to Westminster

If only he had bothered to distinguish between Nationalism and Political Independence

What is more baffling is that many "Scots" (and i use that term loosely) still think being ruled by another Nation, or more appropriately being over ruled, is better than making our own decisions

DznBqAFXQAEHJf5.jpg

Better asking him. 

You’re delusional if you ever think Scotland will be making its own decisions, EU, UK or not. 

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50 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Not many will say this but good post, not that I agree with all of it. 

Nationalism itself doesn’t create lies, that’s just politics and the people who aim to control others. 

Nationalism is a term used in a derogatory manner to try and group together anyone who ( in Scotland’s case) supports independance as swivel eyed loons. 

Alan criticises the EU as their dealings ‘lack class and diplomacy’ yet I can pretty much guarantee that if the indy vote had gone the other way and Westminster had been acting in the same manner as the Eu, which they would,  he would fail to recognise this and merely state that we are the ones choosing to leave and why should they cut us any slack. 

Nor does he seem to recognise that he too lives in his own echo chamber. 

I dont have the dislike for Alan that others on here have, but he loses credibility by continually posting information that reflects his own tunnel vision. 

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4 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

 

You’re delusional if you ever think Scotland will be making its own decisions, EU, UK or not. 

Depends how you define decisions

We will certainly have more than we do now

 

  

 

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1 hour ago, Alan said:

That's exactly what the Leave campaign said. Take Back Control. And it's nuts.  The world, life, politics, trade is so much more complicated than right and wrong choices or black and white choices.  Scotland inside or outside UK, EU whatever will still be impacted by forces, politicians, economics, social changes which the Scottish electorate will have little influence on. 

Nationalisms create lies in any country.  The White Paper is so dated Andrew Wilson brought out his report which proves financially independence would hit Scotland as Brexit will hit the UK and it's now a bad smell the SNP don't really like to talk about.

Exile said we'll get a different deal with an indy Scotland going to the EU.  I think i heard Leave say that about brexit and Scotland will have a weak hand to play, even weaker than UK.  Fabrication bordering on lies along with the 90% of rules made by Westminster.

The thing that genuinely amazes me is UK had a superb deal in the EU.  No €uro. No schengen. Rebate. Bigger player than other countries.  I donated, campaigned and voted Remain even as a soft eurosceptic.  The EU have really disappointed me in their dealings lacking class and diplomacy though and I do worry about EU as they live in a bubble ignoring populism and demands in countries like Italy, Hungary, Poland even Denmark and Sweden with increasing nationalism and anti immigration.

At the moment across the world nuance, debate and middle ground is squeezed by nationalism and politics that were historically on the fringes and the rise of social media has been a big part of that.  Opponents are denigrated and put down even when if you sit together you'd probably agree on 80% of views.

I don't post on here as much because it's an echo chamber and it's obvious who will jump right in straight away but more importantly I have a job, family with 2 kids and very spare time so it's baffling how long people can spend on here.  Constantly.  And rarely talk about Scottish football.

The real reason you don't post is because your bull shit and lies are exposed on a regular basis. You must be one of the most delusional posters on here, and considering some of the people who've signed up or re-signed up lately, that takes some beating.

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3 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Nationalism is a term used in a derogatory manner to try and group together anyone who ( in Scotland’s case) supports independance as swivel eyed loons. 

Alan criticises the EU as their dealings ‘lack class and diplomacy’ yet I can pretty much guarantee that if the indy vote had gone the other way and Westminster had been acting in the same manner as the Eu, which they would,  he would fail to recognise this and merely state that we are the ones choosing to leave and why should they cut us any slack. 

Nor does he seem to recognise that he too lives in his own echo chamber. 

I dont have the dislike for Alan that others on here have, but he loses credibility by continually posting information that reflects his own tunnel vision. 

We all live in an echo chamber to some extent and suffer from tunnel vision to a degree also. I don’t think he’s anymore a hypocrite than most on here, despite disagreeing with much of what he thinks. 

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6 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Depends how you define decisions

We will certainly have more than we do now

 

  

 

I expected a stronger case to be honest. 

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2 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

We all live in an echo chamber to some extent and suffer from tunnel vision to a degree also. I don’t think he’s anymore a hypocrite than most on here, despite disagreeing with much of what he thinks. 

I agree, thats why I didnt dismiss his point , I simply stated that he too lives in an echo chamber, something I think he is unaware of.

Whether we recognise it or not, to a degree we all choose to focus on what we want to hear, some more than others. I think you are one of the more balanced posters. 

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8 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I expected a stronger case to be honest. 

You would get one of you expanded on your definition that a Politically Independent Scotland would not be able to make it's own decisions

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Just now, TDYER63 said:

I agree, thats why I didnt dismiss his point , I simply stated that he too lives in an echo chamber, something I think he is unaware of.

Whether we recognise it or not, to a degree we all choose to focus on what we want to hear, some more than others. I think you are one of the more balanced posters. 

Sadly politics is used to divide and conquer us, something that the EU debate has made abundantly clear, that I didn’t see during the Indy referendum. 

I suspect we’re only going to see more and more nationalism and in uglier forms but as an alternative to globilism it might be the only option. 

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2 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

You would get one of you expanded on your definition that a Politically Independent Scotland would not be able to make it's own decisions

I’m probably not smart enough to put it into words without sounds like a tin hat muppet but we’ll never control our money supply, the media is controlled, mainstream and alternative and our politicians will never offer a real alternative. 

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1 hour ago, Alan said:

That's exactly what the Leave campaign said. Take Back Control. And it's nuts.  The world, life, politics, trade is so much more complicated than right and wrong choices or black and white choices.  Scotland inside or outside UK, EU whatever will still be impacted by forces, politicians, economics, social changes which the Scottish electorate will have little influence on. 

Nationalisms create lies in any country.  The White Paper is so dated Andrew Wilson brought out his report which proves financially independence would hit Scotland as Brexit will hit the UK and it's now a bad smell the SNP don't really like to talk about.

Exile said we'll get a different deal with an indy Scotland going to the EU.  I think i heard Leave say that about brexit and Scotland will have a weak hand to play, even weaker than UK.  Fabrication bordering on lies along with the 90% of rules made by Westminster.

The thing that genuinely amazes me is UK had a superb deal in the EU.  No €uro. No schengen. Rebate. Bigger player than other countries.  I donated, campaigned and voted Remain even as a soft eurosceptic.  The EU have really disappointed me in their dealings lacking class and diplomacy though and I do worry about EU as they live in a bubble ignoring populism and demands in countries like Italy, Hungary, Poland even Denmark and Sweden with increasing nationalism and anti immigration.

At the moment across the world nuance, debate and middle ground is squeezed by nationalism and politics that were historically on the fringes and the rise of social media has been a big part of that.  Opponents are denigrated and put down even when if you sit together you'd probably agree on 80% of views.

No! I said it's yet to be seen what a deal to rejoin/remain in the EU would entail. Let's remember the EU did not offer any support to the Yes cause in 2014, but since then they have been much more positive about the prospects of an independent Scotland in EU. So there is clear room for movement.

You lament polarisation on social media, but have you considered if your own posts might ever come across as polarising? You seem happy to blame almost anything on 'nationalism' - you even tried to argue that the trains don't run on time because of nationalism!

Have you ever acknowledged there could be any benefit to Scottish independence? Otherwise your point of view seems no different from the staunchest British nationalism, about which you seem in complete denial. 

You seem genuinely committed to the Remain cause. So, would you support an independent Scotland in the EU?

Edited by exile

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1 hour ago, Alan said:

That's exactly what the Leave campaign said. Take Back Control. And it's nuts.  The world, life, politics, trade is so much more complicated than right and wrong choices or black and white choices.  Scotland inside or outside UK, EU whatever will still be impacted by forces, politicians, economics, social changes which the Scottish electorate will have little influence on. 

Nationalisms create lies in any country.  The White Paper is so dated Andrew Wilson brought out his report which proves financially independence would hit Scotland as Brexit will hit the UK and it's now a bad smell the SNP don't really like to talk about.

Exile said we'll get a different deal with an indy Scotland going to the EU.  I think i heard Leave say that about brexit and Scotland will have a weak hand to play, even weaker than UK.  Fabrication bordering on lies along with the 90% of rules made by Westminster.

The thing that genuinely amazes me is UK had a superb deal in the EU.  No €uro. No schengen. Rebate. Bigger player than other countries.  I donated, campaigned and voted Remain even as a soft eurosceptic.  The EU have really disappointed me in their dealings lacking class and diplomacy though and I do worry about EU as they live in a bubble ignoring populism and demands in countries like Italy, Hungary, Poland even Denmark and Sweden with increasing nationalism and anti immigration.

At the moment across the world nuance, debate and middle ground is squeezed by nationalism and politics that were historically on the fringes and the rise of social media has been a big part of that.  Opponents are denigrated and put down even when if you sit together you'd probably agree on 80% of views.

I don't post on here as much because it's an echo chamber and it's obvious who will jump right in straight away but more importantly I have a job, family with 2 kids and very spare time so it's baffling how long people can spend on here.  Constantly.  And rarely talk about Scottish football.

Good post alan, opposing opinions are always good to hear, even if i dont agree with the whole of your post, there are some valid points 

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1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Good post alan, opposing opinions are always good to hear, even if i dont agree with the whole of your post, there are some valid points 

I disagree, I dont think it is a good post, it’s an ok post, for Alan.

 Where I agree with Alan is on his statement about opponents being denigrated, though this is hardly new nor can it be blamed on ‘nationalism’. A figure of 80% agreement is also a bit idyllic but he probably just used that figure to emphasise  the point. 

All political parties are guilty of constantly denigrating their opponents, even when a reasonably decent policy or idea is introduced by their  opponents they cannot bring themselves to give it credit. If they do it is always followed by a ‘but’ , then they start rattling off something negative and often not even related to the policy or idea. 

Am I alone, or too naive,  to think that a party that acknowledges another party’s idea as positive, or who has the guts to admit they themselves  got something wrong , would be a damned sight more trustworthy than the constant sniping we get ? I include the SNP in this. 

Where I disagree with Alan in his ‘all nationalism is bad’ theory is that the people who want scottish independence are the exact same people who voted Labour en masse forever and a day in Scotland.

Why are these people now described as blinkered and (negatively ) nationalistic when it was perfectly acceptable for the same hoardes of  people to vote Labour all their life?   

It was ok for 80% of a country ( like Alan, I am using that figure more to emphasise the point ) to constantly vote for a left of centre party so long as there was no threat to the union, now that there is an alternative it is blamed on nationalism. 

It is disrespectful to assume that anyone who supports independance is an indoctrinated nutter who cannot think for themselves.

Finally , he makes a veiled dig about the time people spend on here as if his time was spent on something more important. Everyones personal circumstances are different. He has 2 children, possibly young, and quite rightly his time should be focused on them. However not everyones personal circumstances replicate his and what they choose to do with their time is their decision. Unfortunately however this is just another example of Alan’s blinkered view of the world. 

 

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20 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I disagree, I dont think it is a good post, it’s an ok post, for Alan.

 Where I agree with Alan is on his statement about opponents being denigrated, though this is hardly new nor can it be blamed on ‘nationalism’. A figure of 80% agreement is also a bit idyllic but he probably just used that figure to emphasise  the point. 

All political parties are guilty of constantly denigrating their opponents, even when a reasonably decent policy or idea is introduced by their  opponents they cannot bring themselves to give it credit. If they do it is always followed by a ‘but’ , then they start rattling off something negative and often not even related to the policy or idea. 

Am I alone, or too naive,  to think that a party that acknowledges another party’s idea as positive, or who has the guts to admit they themselves  got something wrong , would be a damned sight more trustworthy than the constant sniping we get ? I include the SNP in this. 

Where I disagree with Alan in his ‘all nationalism is bad’ theory is that the people who want scottish independence are the exact same people who voted Labour en masse forever and a day in Scotland.

Why are these people now described as blinkered and (negatively ) nationalistic when it was perfectly acceptable for the same hoardes of  people to vote Labour all their life?   

It was ok for 80% of a country ( like Alan, I am using that figure more to emphasise the point ) to constantly vote for a left of centre party so long as there was no threat to the union, now that there is an alternative it is blamed on nationalism. 

It is disrespectful to assume that anyone who supports independance is an indoctrinated nutter who cannot think for themselves.

Finally , he makes a veiled dig about the time people spend on here as if his time was spent on something more important. Everyones personal circumstances are different. He has 2 children, possibly young, and quite rightly his time should be focused on them. However not everyones personal circumstances replicate his and what they choose to do with their time is their decision. Unfortunately however this is just another example of Alan’s blinkered view of the world. 

 

Just to add, he's a pretty good example himself of someone who denigrates political opponents, always playing the man rather then the ball is Alan.

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Self-governance is everything. Just look at Brexit for evidence of that. Scotland voted Remain but it is to be removed from the EU regardless of that. Why? We do not have self-governance to the degree of deciding for ourselves. Anyone who does not see the value of independence is, in my eyes, a dyed in the wool unionist.

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I think Alans a cunt, I believe that to be very accurate.

He used to post and try to debate stuff, now he just posts utter shite, even he knows that he is posting shite. 

He is the very example of SNP bad online. He has stated that there are no circumstances that he will ever support Scottish independence, which is fine, its his ideals and morals. He believes Scotland to be a country incapable of running itself, and one that needs handouts from the UK to survive, again, thats his opinion and he is entitled to it. The UK government could do anything, and he would still want to be a part of that country, and I think that says a lot.

The SNP, the Scottish Government and independence in general, can be debated, debunked, criticised etc etc, but not by him. Theres British Nationalists on here, and they are capable of putting across their views, points and stats, and they should feel free to do so, but no one is as blinkered and obnoxious.

I want independence for Scotland, but that doesnt make me a nationalist as Alan tries to paint it, the exact opposite as far as Im concerned.

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2 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I do not see why unionists think nationalism is an insult or nasty. Everyone is a nationalist - even yoons. They are nationalistically British.

Easy way to shut down debate. 

Nationalism should be seen as something positive and encouraged. 

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Another reason for independence. You actually get a government voted for by the people.

How many spells of Tory governments have we had in the last sixty years? Somewhere between five to ten I'd say and in all that time the Tories have been a minority party in Scotland. What's more it has been the Tories that denied Scotland what it voted for in 1979 - devolution. It was a Tory government under Thatcher that oversaw the closure of the majority of coal mines, steelworks and shipyards in Scotland. And it is a Tory government not making a monumental fuck-up of Brexit apart from it's other long list of wrong-doings. That is what not being independent and having the right to choose our own governments has done for us.

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6 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

What's more it has been the Tories that denied Scotland what it voted for in 1979 - devolution. .

That was actually their Unionist and Establishment allies The Labour Party

 

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