exile Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 OK so here are two opposing alternative views, one from Jewish News, one from 'the electronic intifada'' https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-nec-defies-chief-rabbi-to-adopt-new-anti-semitism-code/ https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/new-assault-corbyn-aims-ban-criticism-israel-labour Both agree that the nub of the matter is whether “claiming that the State of Israel is a racist endeavor” is anti-Semitic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, exile said: OK so here are two opposing alternative views, one from Jewish News, one from 'the electronic intifada'' https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-nec-defies-chief-rabbi-to-adopt-new-anti-semitism-code/ https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/new-assault-corbyn-aims-ban-criticism-israel-labour Both agree that the nub of the matter is whether “claiming that the State of Israel is a racist endeavor” is anti-Semitic. From the comments. Trying to say there is one Jewish voice on this is just sophistry and politics. Again it's partisan politics. Jewish groups also want the rules to be rejected. urging “our governments, municipalities, universities and other institutions to reject the IHRA definition.” The definition, it says, is intentionally worded so that legitimate criticisms of Israel and advocacy for Palestinian rights can be equated with antisemitism “as a means to suppress the former.” By confusing the previously clear understanding of antisemitism as hostility towards Jews as Jews, this conflation manages simultaneously to undermine “both the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality and the global struggle against antisemitism”. https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/global-jewish-organizations-affirm-the-boycott-divestment-and-sanctions-movement/ Edited July 24, 2018 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 I would say that it is the norm for this politically-correct age we live in. Say anything about any race, religion, sexual preference etc and it will be twisted into being anti-this or anti-that. It is the norm. Basically, like plenty of other issues, Corbyn is just not cut out for leadership as he just does not lead. Behind him the Labour party are a disorganized rabble, he does not make his position clear on Brexit, he does not put the weak and bleeding opposition to the sword as any competent leader would and he just comes across as more of a political activist who wants to be more but will never get there to the standard required. Just to add though I'd still take him over another few years of moronic May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 On 7/23/2018 at 7:55 AM, ParisInAKilt said: Corbyn doesn’t support the EU, how can he when his whole thing is anti austerity? Supporting the EU would be hypocritical . . . Corbyn has always been in a difficult position re the EU; a huge part of their vote was in favour of Brexit so hard to straddle both horses. The Eu is a capitalist organisation hence his long standing opposition. What was he meant to do - commit wholeheartedly to Remain and be accused of being a hypocrite. Bottom line: we're screwed with Brexit, we're screwed if we stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said: I would say that it is the norm for this politically-correct age we live in. Say anything about any race, religion, sexual preference etc and it will be twisted into being anti-this or anti-that. It is the norm. Basically, like plenty of other issues, Corbyn is just not cut out for leadership as he just does not lead. Behind him the Labour party are a disorganized rabble, he does not make his position clear on Brexit, he does not put the weak and bleeding opposition to the sword as any competent leader would and he just comes across as more of a political activist who wants to be more but will never get there to the standard required. Just to add though I'd still take him over another few years of moronic May. he looked good in the election and then just seems to have fizzled away. Weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde1998 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) YouGov polling: http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/kgfdyeogty/SundayTimesResults_180720_for_web.pdf Imagine there was a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union and this was the question, how would you vote: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? Remain - 53% (73% in Scottish sub-sample) Leave - 47% (27% in Scottish sub-sample) Imagine there was a three-way referendum on Brexit, with the options of Britain remaining in the European Union, leaving the European Union with the deal Theresa May has set out, or leaving the European Union without a deal. People would be able to vote for their first and second preference. Which would you vote for as your first preference? Remain a member of the European Union - 50% (73% in Scottish sub-sample) Leave the EU and accept the deal - 11% (7% in Scottish sub-sample) Leave the EU without a deal - 38% (20% in Scottish sub-sample) Second preferences added Remain a member of the European Union - 54% (75% in Scottish sub-sample) Leave the EU without a deal - 46% (25% in Scottish sub-sample) Margin of Error Range (Scottish sub-samples - base 155): Remain 73% (66-80%); Leave 27% (20-34%) Remain 73% (66-80%); Leave with deal (3-11%); Leave without deal 20% (14-26%) Remain 75% (68-82%); Leave 25% (18-32%) Clear movement in people's view on Brexit - the Scottish view couldn't be clearer. Edited July 24, 2018 by Clyde1998 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 9 hours ago, Third Lanark said: Corbyn has always been in a difficult position re the EU; a huge part of their vote was in favour of Brexit so hard to straddle both horses. The Eu is a capitalist organisation hence his long standing opposition. What was he meant to do - commit wholeheartedly to Remain and be accused of being a hypocrite. Bottom line: we're screwed with Brexit, we're screwed if we stay. I'd be prepared to accept a view like "the EU is a capitalist organisation" and Corbyn wanting to pursue a genuine Internationalist agenda if it wasn't for comments like today's dog whistle comments about immigrant workers keeping wages down. While not being true, this plays into the hands of the far right. When it comes down to it, Labour and the Trades Unions concern for workers stops at the borders of the U.K. Better Together, now, then and always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, phart said: From the comments. Trying to say there is one Jewish voice on this is just sophistry and politics. Again it's partisan politics. Jewish groups also want the rules to be rejected. urging “our governments, municipalities, universities and other institutions to reject the IHRA definition.” The definition, it says, is intentionally worded so that legitimate criticisms of Israel and advocacy for Palestinian rights can be equated with antisemitism “as a means to suppress the former.” By confusing the previously clear understanding of antisemitism as hostility towards Jews as Jews, this conflation manages simultaneously to undermine “both the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality and the global struggle against antisemitism”. https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/global-jewish-organizations-affirm-the-boycott-divestment-and-sanctions-movement/ Absolutely. This confirms my suspicion that it has become a factional turf war within Labour that has become a smear or stick with which to beat Corbyn, by the Tories and right wing press. I think it's also something hard to defend against, a bit like some of the 'momentum thugs' accusations and 'intimidating nationalists'/'burly men' accusations. I'm not saying no one felt intimidated, but it becomes a story blown out of all proportion by one side, and often repeated unquestionaingly by otherwise trusted/ neutral media. (no longer trusted/neutral!) Edited July 24, 2018 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Anyway, back to Brexit - Some say Dominic Raab and DExEU have been downgraded https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-eu-talks-uk-lead-prime-minister-dominic-raab-michel-barnier-a8461776.html others say not so https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/07/dominic-raab-theresa-may-brexit-take-over-dexeu-negotiations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 3 hours ago, aaid said: I'd be prepared to accept a view like "the EU is a capitalist organisation" and Corbyn wanting to pursue a genuine Internationalist agenda if it wasn't for comments like today's dog whistle comments about immigrant workers keeping wages down. While not being true, this plays into the hands of the far right. I saw Sturgeon's tweet earlier along the same lines as your post. Then i watched Corbyn's speech which was linked in the replies. I'm pretty sure Nicola (and your good self) have gotten the wrong end of the stick here. He was lamenting the fact the UK has de-industrialised and become reliant on cheap imported goods. He wasn't referring to immigrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 9 hours ago, Dave78 said: I saw Sturgeon's tweet earlier along the same lines as your post. Then i watched Corbyn's speech which was linked in the replies. I'm pretty sure Nicola (and your good self) have gotten the wrong end of the stick here. He was lamenting the fact the UK has de-industrialised and become reliant on cheap imported goods. He wasn't referring to immigrants. Perhaps but Corbyn has form where this is concerned. This proposal isn't far from the protectionist guff that Trump is coming out with either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde1998 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Seems like the UK won't just be negotiating a trade deal with the EU, but also the WTO: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/experts-explanation-trading-wto-rules-means/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Michel Barnier has rejected Theresa May's Chequers plan for Brexit and made Dominic Raab look like a tit - even tho we all knew he was one Popcorn time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde1998 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Michel Barnier has rejected Theresa May's Chequers plan for Brexit and made Dominic Raab look like a tit - even tho we all knew he was one Popcorn time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/44964521 'Michel Barnier said the UK wanted to "take back control" of its money, law and borders - but so did the EU.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 On 7/24/2018 at 1:58 PM, PapofGlencoe said: he looked good in the election and then just seems to have fizzled away. Weird. He is getting on a bit. He needs to pace himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 I've noticed that the calls for a second referendum or "people's vote" seem to be gaining momentum and weirdly being pushed a bit by the MSM This is something i thought wouldn't happen and i'm still not sure it will The consequences of it for the political parties, whatever way you look are not good, and the worst case scenario is civil unrest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: I've noticed that the calls for a second referendum or "people's vote" seem to be gaining momentum and weirdly being pushed a bit by the MSM This is something i thought wouldn't happen and i'm still not sure it will The consequences of it for the political parties, whatever way you look are not good, and the worst case scenario is civil unrest The guardian’s opinions articles have mentioned it on and off for awhile now. Another vote wouldn’t be a massive surprise. People would still vote Tory after it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 The only way there'd be a 'people's vote' (very effective framing of a 2nd referendum BTW), would be if there was a snap general election and Labour promised it in their manifesto, which they then won. They won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 25 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said: People would still vote Tory after it. Obviously - and Labour/LibDem/Greens too However it's only a matter of time before the two main parties fracture (there is only a fag paper between the core of them) and we see the rise of something else IMO UKIP or some other anti EU basterdisation could sweep up the leave vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 43 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Obviously - and Labour/LibDem/Greens too However it's only a matter of time before the two main parties fracture (there is only a fag paper between the core of them) and we see the rise of something else IMO UKIP or some other anti EU basterdisation could sweep up the leave vote Far from knowledgeable on this but with first past the post wouldn’t it be difficult for another party, established or not to win an election? Even after all this EU farce. Not voting would send more of a message than a so called protest vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 As I understand it a second vote would not be welcomed by the EU. I am pretty sure the EU have said there is no way the vote can be over-turned.The decision has been made and much money has been spent on preparing for the UK's exit from the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 19 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: As I understand it a second vote would not be welcomed by the EU. I am pretty sure the EU have said there is no way the vote can be over-turned.The decision has been made and much money has been spent on preparing for the UK's exit from the EU. Have to agree. The EU have spent a fortune in time and cash to accommodate the UK. I'd imagine they'd tell them to shove another vote (it'd only delay the same for another 3/4 years). I suspect either May gets some sort of shit deal, her party implodes then a GE . Then ? God knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antidote Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) Army put on standby to deliver essential goods for the vulnerable and no doubt the privileged tories. Edited July 29, 2018 by antidote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said: As I understand it a second vote would not be welcomed by the EU. I am pretty sure the EU have said there is no way the vote can be over-turned.The decision has been made and much money has been spent on preparing for the UK's exit from the EU. Pretty sure the EU have said the exact opposite. That it’s never too late. You aren’t out until you are out. Just that there is no precedent. J Edited July 29, 2018 by Bristolhibby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 51 minutes ago, Bristolhibby said: Pretty sure the EU have said the exact opposite. That it’s never too late. You aren’t out until you are out. Just that there is no precedent. J I do recall them saying they don't interfere in a country's democratic process. Since the UK voted to leave the EU it will remain that way for them. Of course, I suppose, if a second referendum was to be had and a different result returned that would change things. However, I cannot see that happening. It would be too big a climbdown for the egotistical Tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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