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12 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Not to that degree. I can't say I have heard the SNP sacking a MP because they did not vote for what the SNP wanted.

Maybe their level of control is that good . . . 

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2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Not to that degree. I can't say I have heard the SNP sacking a MP because they did not vote for what the SNP wanted.

Has there been a vote in which the SNP lost due to rebels? We need the same circumstances to see if the result would be the same.

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Basic point is though that the Tories are Westminster-based and will look after London and the Home Counties looking after No 1. They'd order Scottish MP's to vote to pass bills no matter if they were detrimental to Scotland the they'd follow. That is, for me, why a vote for a Scottish Tory is a vote lost.

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10 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

For his part in voting against his party Phillip Hammond was sacked from his minesterial post by the Tories. This sums up the Tory party and why Scots should not be voting for them. Basically, the MP's elected are expected to be mere puppets for the Westminster Tories. You either tow their line and vote with them on every issue regardless of how it effects that MPs constituents or you get sacked. 

 

9 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Okay Stephen then. The original point still very much stands.

 

 

7 hours ago, phart said:

The SNP has that sort of control over their parliament members as well do they not?

 

7 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Not to that degree. I can't say I have heard the SNP sacking a MP because they did not vote for what the SNP wanted.

Er, nobody can sack an MP (except the electorate). He can be removed from a position in government but that is it,

7 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Maybe their level of control is that good . . . 

Their rules, delegates not representatives.

5 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Basic point is though that the Tories are Westminster-based and will look after London and the Home Counties looking after No 1. They'd order Scottish MP's to vote to pass bills no matter if they were detrimental to Scotland the they'd follow. That is, for me, why a vote for a Scottish Tory is a vote lost.

London is not a Tory dominated area. Most people, who expressed a preference through the ballot box, decided to remain  in the UK. After that people voted for what they believed was best for the UK.

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4 hours ago, andymac said:

 

 

 

 

London is not a Tory dominated area. Most people, who expressed a preference through the ballot box, decided to remain  in the UK. After that people voted for what they believed was best for the UK.

Have a look at the coloured map showing which party won which constituency. London and the Home Counties plus the line south of Bristol to London in England is virtually entirely blue apart from areas in London. Labour's heartland is the northern part of England. Hammond was removed from his post then (if that wording makes you feel better) but still remains he was forced out because he dared stand up against something he didn't believe in.

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17 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Have a look at the coloured map showing which party won which constituency. London and the Home Counties plus the line south of Bristol to London in England is virtually entirely blue apart from areas in London. Labour's heartland is the northern part of England. Hammond was removed from his post then (if that wording makes you feel better) but still remains he was forced out because he dared stand up against something he didn't believe in.

In reality the split is between Urban and Rural areas.

ae068c5b-3bdc-4f8e-8992-2be516acb877.png

Sacking a person in a party from a leadership role because they do not agree with the rest of the leadership is normal practise. It derives from collective responsibility.

What do the SNP do?

 

 

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The mammoth goal for the SNP is independence and they are like David against Goliath fighting against the odds on various fronts. I would say that makes them all more closely-knit and realizing they must stick together on voting on bills etc. This particular bill was about Brexit and the majority of Scots voted to remain in Europe hence SNP voted the way they did on this bill.

Steven Hammond votedcyhe way je did because I would guess he was against Brexit and I would hazard a guess so did his constituents. That is what MPs are elected for - to represent their constituents. Hiscreward for looking out for his consituents? He was removed from his post for not supporting something the lame duck Prime Minister did. In other words the Tories wanted him to say to hell with your constituents and support May. Why? He was elected by his consituents not Theresa May.

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21 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The mammoth goal for the SNP is independence and they are like David against Goliath fighting against the odds on various fronts. I would say that makes them all more closely-knit and realizing they must stick together on voting on bills etc. This particular bill was about Brexit and the majority of Scots voted to remain in Europe hence SNP voted the way they did on this bill.

Steven Hammond votedcyhe way je did because I would guess he was against Brexit and I would hazard a guess so did his constituents. That is what MPs are elected for - to represent their constituents. Hiscreward for looking out for his consituents? He was removed from his post for not supporting something the lame duck Prime Minister did. In other words the Tories wanted him to say to hell with your constituents and support May. Why? He was elected by his consituents not Theresa May.

Theresa May is not supporting the wishes of the majority of her constituents either. 

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6 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

A very short video that touches on the curious position of being a yes remain voter 

Having an anti EU stance is fine and dandy but he offers no answers to the social and economic impact of leaving the EU (this was a year and a half ago) which is surprising considering he was another economic GERS fanboy "concerned" about it in the run up to the Independence referendum

https://lbfromlv.wordpress.com/2014/09/14/mark-blyth-why-scottish-independence-would-be-an-economic-disaster-foreign-affairs-by-mark-blyth-september-9-2014/

I also very much doubt that the next referendum will be Independence alongside "full EU" membership

 

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5 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Having an anti EU stance is fine and dandy but he offers no answers to the social and economic impact of leaving the EU 

I see what you’re saying but isn’t this similar to those who said Scotland leaving the UK would be a disaster, a bit like Blyth as you correctly pointed out?

Edited by ParisInAKilt

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4 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I see what you’re saying but isn’t this similar to those who said Scotland leaving the UK would be a disaster, a bit like Blyth as you correctly pointed out?

In a sense yes but I think there are differences

 

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16 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

A very short video that touches on the curious position of being a yes remain voter 

Is that not just a version of the old "An independent Scotland would be poorer than Greece" argument? Some countries have done very well out of the EU. There is no fundamental  reason why an independent Scotland couldn't be one of them. There is no guarantee that it would, but the economy of Scotland is very different to the economy of Greece. There is also no reason why an independent Scotland couldn't choose to leave the EU at any time in the future if it was thought that that would be a better option.

 

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This is one of the big differences 

DRZXQaWWkAEYhM7.jpg

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43 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Is that not just a version of the old "An independent Scotland would be poorer than Greece" argument? Some countries have done very well out of the EU. There is no fundamental  reason why an independent Scotland couldn't be one of them. There is no guarantee that it would, but the economy of Scotland is very different to the economy of Greece. There is also no reason why an independent Scotland couldn't choose to leave the EU at any time in the future if it was thought that that would be a better option.

 

Agree with a lot of that but his point about swapping one version of austerity for another is worth noting. 

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8 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Agree with a lot of that but his point about swapping one version of austerity for another is worth noting. 

True - which i why i doubt full membership of the EU will be on any Indyref 2 ticket

Would be suicidal

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I agree.  I voted remain and would again (although the Catalonia issue has annoyed me as far as the EU is concerned), but there are a lot of people who would prefer associate membership (EEA/EFTA) after indy and who might be lost to Yes if they are strongly against the EU.  That decision should be one that is put to the Scottish people after indy so that we can decide for ourselves.  IMHO it is now essential that indyref 2 should be about independence and only independence, and it should not be tied to any particular stance on Europe, or indeed on a lot of other matters that are better left for an indy Scotland to decide.  That is why the Yes movement needs to be a broad movement and not be broken into small factions who disagree about all sort of fairly trivial matters.  We can have disagreements but as long as we all agree that indy is the goal, we need to play for the team.

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8 minutes ago, Alibi said:

IMHO it is now essential that indyref 2 should be about independence and only independence, and it should not be tied to any particular stance on Europe, or indeed on a lot of other matters that are better left for an indy Scotland to decide.  That is why the Yes movement needs to be a broad movement and not be broken into small factions who disagree about all sort of fairly trivial matters.  We can have disagreements but as long as we all agree that indy is the goal, we need to play for the team.

The problem is though that Better Together2 will look to make everything an issue and the Yes campaign will need to have the answers. It was a bit like the last election. Scottish Tories and Labour seeked to make independence an issue though SNP tried to concentrate on other issues as part of their manifesto. Better Together2 will, as sure as eggs are eggs, will go down the same route as they did last time and hopefully the Yes campaign have prepared better answers.

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12 minutes ago, Alibi said:

I agree.  I voted remain and would again (although the Catalonia issue has annoyed me as far as the EU is concerned), but there are a lot of people who would prefer associate membership (EEA/EFTA) after indy and who might be lost to Yes if they are strongly against the EU.  That decision should be one that is put to the Scottish people after indy so that we can decide for ourselves.  IMHO it is now essential that indyref 2 should be about independence and only independence, and it should not be tied to any particular stance on Europe, or indeed on a lot of other matters that are better left for an indy Scotland to decide.  That is why the Yes movement needs to be a broad movement and not be broken into small factions who disagree about all sort of fairly trivial matters.  We can have disagreements but as long as we all agree that indy is the goal, we need to play for the team.

It's a difficult one as if a referendum is called and we are out of the EU and proposing to leave the UK the No side would have a field day economically

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4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

It's a difficult one as if a referendum is called and we are out of the EU and proposing to leave the UK the No side would have a field day economically

Agreed. Every issue of independence (even ones we don't want to think about) the Yes campaign have to have a viable solution/plan. We can't have Better Together posing questions and the Yes campaign only have a half-cocked answer.

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5 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Agreed. Every issue of independence (even ones we don't want to think about) the Yes campaign have to have a viable solution/plan. We can't have Better Together posing questions and the Yes campaign only have a half-cocked answer.

But whose solution gets put forward?

The SNP's? Green's? New Labour for Independence's?

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6 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

It's a difficult one as if a referendum is called and we are out of the EU and proposing to leave the UK the No side would have a field day economically

Not helped with the SNP throwing their weight behind the EU. I can see why they did it though but it may come back to haunt them. 

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10 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Not helped with the SNP throwing their weight behind the EU. I can see why they did it though but it may come back to haunt them. 

That is the one specific issue where I think it would be prudent to offer a referendum to decide Scotland's future relationship with Europe. In, out, EFTA.  To be decided by the voters of Scotland.  I think it would result in a vote to be in the EU, but giving people the choice, with all options offered, is the way to prevent it being used as a main issue in indyref2.

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