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I can completely understand how in the wake of the Tory "Ruth Davidson says No Surrender to Indy Ref2 " campaign in the snap 2017 campaign some unknown imbeciles like Kirsteen "Brexit's too difficult for me" Hair found themselves elected - and no doubt the same could be said with the SNP in 2015 - but there's no excuse with Ross Thomson as was an MSP at the time and had shown his imbecility on plenty of occasions in Holyrood.

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2 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

:lol:

every day the hypocrisy on here reaches a higher level.

Perhaps you'd like to expand on my hypocrisy ?

Scottish Nationalism bad British Nationalism good ?

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6 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Perhaps you'd like to expand on my hypocrisy ?

Scottish Nationalism bad British Nationalism good ?

“Suffer pain now so we can make Britain great again”

Its a headline you could apply to yes voters who voted not knowing the currency, Eu status, economic uncertainty etc. Most of us supported a yes vote despite all this because we believed it was worth it for self determination etc.

 

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19 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

“Suffer pain now so we can make Britain great again”

Its a headline you could apply to yes voters who voted not knowing the currency, Eu status, economic uncertainty etc. Most of us supported a yes vote despite all this because we believed it was worth it for self determination etc.

 

Again - there is a big difference between Scottish Political Independence from Westminster and The UK leaving the EU (explained elsewhere)

Think you are looking too much into things 

At no time did the SNP, Salmond, Sturgeon or indeed the entire Yes movement EVER have such Nationalistic headlines or promised Independence as a Utopia 

And i repeat that i posted the headline to compare the rag's stance on Scottish Nationalism to British (English) Nationalism

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1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said:

Again - there is a big difference between Scottish Political Independence from Westminster and The UK leaving the EU (explained elsewhere)

Think you are looking too much into things 

At no time did the SNP, Salmond, Sturgeon or indeed the entire Yes movement EVER have such Nationalistic headlines or promised Independence as a Utopia 

And i repeat that i posted the headline to compare the rag's stance on Scottish Nationalism to British (English) Nationalism

I agree with some of that and realise the hypocrisy is on all sides of this debate, especially from the unionist media and politicians. I guess they see Britain as a country, while we don’t. 

I think the difference is less that what yes / remain voters are willing to acknowledge. 

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Blackford says "Northern Ireland getting permanent membership of single market according to the Brexit legal advice". & "denying Scotland the rights and opportunities that her deal offers to other parts of the UK"

What happened to the Tories' blood red lines, in the event of loosening the precious Union? Why hasn't Mundell resigned?  I see Ross Thomson is openly saying that @UKGovScotland is saying untruths.  Ruth Davidson's Conservatives in disarray & rudderless.

Edited by exile

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11 hours ago, aaid said:

I can completely understand how in the wake of the Tory "Ruth Davidson says No Surrender to Indy Ref2 " campaign in the snap 2017 campaign some unknown imbeciles like Kirsteen "Brexit's too difficult for me" Hair found themselves elected - and no doubt the same could be said with the SNP in 2015 - but there's no excuse with Ross Thomson as was an MSP at the time and had shown his imbecility on plenty of occasions in Holyrood.

The Tories don't have a very big talent pool to pick from in Scotland, tbf.

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10 hours ago, Clyde1998 said:

The Tories don't have a very big talent pool to pick from in Scotland, tbf.

It was more that people voted for him rather than him being selected as a candidate in the first place. Doesn't say much for the electorate of Aberdeen South IMHO 

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When you vote for someone as a protest vote you normally end up with a useless representative 

And that's what the rise in Tory votes was due to 

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Saw this comment and it's brilliant. These are the real problems. Guardian comments from  bullingdonmorons

 

You really do have to be an utter moron to support this system.

Decades from now, history books will record these years of Neo-Liberalism as the dumbest period in human history. They will tell of a system that created vast wealth for a handful of people whilst leaving millions struggling to survive, a system designed to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich, a system that promoted a Malthusian hatred of the poor and a complete indifference to the plight of others whilst extolling the virtues of greed and ignorance.

The last 10 years spanned the worst financial crisis in history, a crisis caused by the sheer greed and criminal behaviour of the richest people on the planet aided by the very deregulation and free market ideology that the right wing so craves, and was only solved by using billions of taxpayers money.

But who has paid the price? In 2004, you needed £700 million to be in Britain's 50 wealthiest people. 10 years later, that figure is now £1.7 billion. In 2004, the richest 1,000 people owned assets worth £200 billion, today they are worth £519 billion. The 5 richest families now own more wealth than the bottom 20% combined. The average salary for a FTSE 100 CEO is now £84,000 A WEEK.

Meanwhile, for the rest of us? 20% of the population, 13 million people, are now classed as living in poverty, of which over 8 million come from families who are IN WORK. In 2004, the median weekly wage was £462. Today, it is £427 a week. The cost of living has risen by 34% since 2004, meaning that the average disposable income per household is now almost £1,200 a year lower.
In addition, 913,138 people used food-banks in 2013/14, compared to 346,992 in 2012/13 and 26,000 in 2008/09. There has been a 74% increase in the number of malnutrition-related hospital admissions since 2009, whilst cases of rickets have risen by 25% in 4 years. Public health experts have warned that the rise of malnutrition in the UK “has all the signs of a public health emergency.”

And this is happening right now, IN ONE OF THE RICHEST COUNTRY ON EARTH.

The ruling elite already own all our land, gas, electricity, railways, water and media. They are now coming for our pensions, our NHS, our roads, our schools and our green spaces. They have systematically destroyed the unions, dismantled our protections, created mass unemployment and are dismembering the welfare state. They make it easier to sack us, make us work longer hours for less pay, force our kids to work for nothing, raise the retirement age whilst cutting our pensions and weaken our health and safety laws. Yet executives of blue-chip companies enjoyed a median pay rise of 32% in the last year alone.

We are being shafted.

So, It's time to get angry, and we need someone to express that anger, because none of our politicians are going to do it. Someone to speak for the millions of hard working people who only want a decent life for themselves and for their kids to have a secure future. Someone that speaks up for all of us, not just a privileged few. Someone that tells us that our worth is not measured by our wealth, but our value as human beings. Someone that tells us that compassion and empathy are not bullshit. Someone that tells us that ordinary people can expect to have a decent job, a decent house and decent healthcare. Someone that tells us our elderly can live out their final years in a degree of comfort. Someone that tells us our sick and disabled should be allowed to exist with a shred of dignity. Someone that tells us that the most disadvantaged will not be looked down upon as scum.

Someone that tells us that our kids can still have hopes and dreams.

To paraphrase Lloyd George whilst talking about the Great War: "If the people really knew the truth about what was happening, it would be ended tomorrow, but they must never know."

Well, it is time we did know, and time we all stood up and said, enough is enough

  • Upvote 5

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Good addendum to the above post

People won't get angry. They can't afford to. The strongest mechanism of capitalist control is debt. In a stroke of Machiavellian genius, the neoliberals realised the best way to enslave and check mate the population was to persuade them to borrow money. Once they had done so, their lives became a matter of struggling to pay back that debt, while constantly being deluged with more demands that they borrow yet more while at the same time threats to their employment security grew. Simultaneously, attacks on the only means most of us have of being heard, joining a trade union, intensified and succeeded in demonising the movement. The finishing touch was the introduction of tuition fees. The very group most likely to become radicalised were intimidated into conformism by one of the biggest acts of social engineering ever (only overshadowed by the "right to buy" ploy, which turned people into debtors at the same time as it encouraged them to see themselves as capitalism). With a subjugated populism only ever likely to vote for "more of the same" (except with more or less immigration and EU) nothing is going to change. Game won by the market.

 

I formatted the quote.

  • Upvote 1

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The whole brexit issue is exhausting and i dare say most of joe public are of the same mind set. Time for the SNP to distance themselves from this shit storm as the ship will pull everyone onboard down with it. Who within the snp has made the decision to be the anti brexit  cheerleder as i cant see how this ends well 

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6 hours ago, aaid said:

It was more that people voted for him rather than him being selected as a candidate in the first place. Doesn't say much for the electorate of Aberdeen South IMHO 

As ever our own electorate are the issue.  The Yes/SNP voters who didn't bother to vote in 2016 have cost Scotland's position big time.  

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I suspect the Tories are engineering a Labour take-over over of power (either by GE / Parliamentary "trick" / incompetence) so they can blame them for the next 5 years of chaos.

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5 hours ago, phart said:

Saw this comment and it's brilliant. These are the real problems. Guardian comments from  bullingdonmorons

 

You really do have to be an utter moron to support this system.

Decades from now, history books will record these years of Neo-Liberalism as the dumbest period in human history. They will tell of a system that created vast wealth for a handful of people whilst leaving millions struggling to survive, a system designed to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich, a system that promoted a Malthusian hatred of the poor and a complete indifference to the plight of others whilst extolling the virtues of greed and ignorance.

The last 10 years spanned the worst financial crisis in history, a crisis caused by the sheer greed and criminal behaviour of the richest people on the planet aided by the very deregulation and free market ideology that the right wing so craves, and was only solved by using billions of taxpayers money.

But who has paid the price? In 2004, you needed £700 million to be in Britain's 50 wealthiest people. 10 years later, that figure is now £1.7 billion. In 2004, the richest 1,000 people owned assets worth £200 billion, today they are worth £519 billion. The 5 richest families now own more wealth than the bottom 20% combined. The average salary for a FTSE 100 CEO is now £84,000 A WEEK.

Meanwhile, for the rest of us? 20% of the population, 13 million people, are now classed as living in poverty, of which over 8 million come from families who are IN WORK. In 2004, the median weekly wage was £462. Today, it is £427 a week. The cost of living has risen by 34% since 2004, meaning that the average disposable income per household is now almost £1,200 a year lower.
In addition, 913,138 people used food-banks in 2013/14, compared to 346,992 in 2012/13 and 26,000 in 2008/09. There has been a 74% increase in the number of malnutrition-related hospital admissions since 2009, whilst cases of rickets have risen by 25% in 4 years. Public health experts have warned that the rise of malnutrition in the UK “has all the signs of a public health emergency.”

And this is happening right now, IN ONE OF THE RICHEST COUNTRY ON EARTH.

The ruling elite already own all our land, gas, electricity, railways, water and media. They are now coming for our pensions, our NHS, our roads, our schools and our green spaces. They have systematically destroyed the unions, dismantled our protections, created mass unemployment and are dismembering the welfare state. They make it easier to sack us, make us work longer hours for less pay, force our kids to work for nothing, raise the retirement age whilst cutting our pensions and weaken our health and safety laws. Yet executives of blue-chip companies enjoyed a median pay rise of 32% in the last year alone.

We are being shafted.

So, It's time to get angry, and we need someone to express that anger, because none of our politicians are going to do it. Someone to speak for the millions of hard working people who only want a decent life for themselves and for their kids to have a secure future. Someone that speaks up for all of us, not just a privileged few. Someone that tells us that our worth is not measured by our wealth, but our value as human beings. Someone that tells us that compassion and empathy are not bullshit. Someone that tells us that ordinary people can expect to have a decent job, a decent house and decent healthcare. Someone that tells us our elderly can live out their final years in a degree of comfort. Someone that tells us our sick and disabled should be allowed to exist with a shred of dignity. Someone that tells us that the most disadvantaged will not be looked down upon as scum.

Someone that tells us that our kids can still have hopes and dreams.

To paraphrase Lloyd George whilst talking about the Great War: "If the people really knew the truth about what was happening, it would be ended tomorrow, but they must never know."

Well, it is time we did know, and time we all stood up and said, enough is enough

They should be putting THAT on the sides of buses.  

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1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

They should be putting THAT on the sides of buses.  

It would need to be some size of a bus. 

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21 minutes ago, aaid said:

It would need to be some size of a bus. 

If it can fit in 350 mio quid a week it can fit in that 🙂

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8 hours ago, phart said:

Good addendum to the above post

People won't get angry. They can't afford to. The strongest mechanism of capitalist control is debt. In a stroke of Machiavellian genius, the neoliberals realised the best way to enslave and check mate the population was to persuade them to borrow money. Once they had done so, their lives became a matter of struggling to pay back that debt, while constantly being deluged with more demands that they borrow yet more while at the same time threats to their employment security grew. Simultaneously, attacks on the only means most of us have of being heard, joining a trade union, intensified and succeeded in demonising the movement. The finishing touch was the introduction of tuition fees. The very group most likely to become radicalised were intimidated into conformism by one of the biggest acts of social engineering ever (only overshadowed by the "right to buy" ploy, which turned people into debtors at the same time as it encouraged them to see themselves as capitalism). With a subjugated populism only ever likely to vote for "more of the same" (except with more or less immigration and EU) nothing is going to change. Game won by the market.

 

I formatted the quote.

I unfortunately belong to the generation that threw away everything that the working man/woman had fought for post WW2. We didn't pay for it, however todays and tomorrows generations will, feel very sorry for them.

Edited by Eisegerwind

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It is clear to me that the Tories have not fully grasped what Brexit and the vote for it means. They have made massive concessions all to stop a hard border going up in Northern Ireland. Ermm sorry but yes it is not what people want but it is what happens if you leave the EU. The hard border should have been accepted straight away between Northern Ireland and the Republic and something tells me talks would have been a heck of a lot less complicated and the final deal would have resembled a true Brexit rather than we have now - a fudged effort more like Brexit-lite.

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25 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It is clear to me that the Tories have not fully grasped what Brexit and the vote for it means. They have made massive concessions all to stop a hard border going up in Northern Ireland. Ermm sorry but yes it is not what people want but it is what happens if you leave the EU. The hard border should have been accepted straight away between Northern Ireland and the Republic and something tells me talks would have been a heck of a lot less complicated and the final deal would have resembled a true Brexit rather than we have now - a fudged effort more like Brexit-lite.

That would mean scrapping the good Friday agreement. Why would either side want to do that when Brexit is being imposed on them?

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3 minutes ago, Ken77 said:

That would mean scrapping the good Friday agreement. Why would either side want to do that when Brexit is being imposed on them?

Would the whole agreement fall totally apart because a hard border goes up? I do not pretend to understand the Good Friday Agreement by the way but both countries (Northern Ireland and the Republic) surely accepted the real possibility of a hard border returning if Brexit was voted for.

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