The Brexit Thread

[exile]

What would be the terms of a "people's vote"? Hard to see one being a rerun of remain/leave. A three way (in, out with deal, no deal) would likely be resisted by the leavers as it would split the leave vote.

A two way vote (leave with deal, or no deal) might work, as it guarantees to fulfil the previous referendum (ie as long as both options involve leaving the EU) but otherwise the 'deal' could be as close to staying in as they risked phrasing it. If they make the deal too close to the EU, more will be tempted to take their chances with no deal. If they make the deal more like a clear cut well defined hard brexit, then they are mote likely to get backing from the hard brexiteers (but leaves little for remainers to vote for).   

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, exile said:

What would be the terms of a "people's vote"? Hard to see one being a rerun of remain/leave. A three way (in, out with deal, no deal) would likely be resisted by the leavers as it would split the leave vote.

A two way vote (leave with deal, or no deal) might work, as it guarantees to fulfil the previous referendum (ie as long as both options involve leaving the EU) but otherwise the 'deal' could be as close to staying in as they risked phrasing it. If they make the deal too close to the EU, more will be tempted to take their chances with no deal. If they make the deal more like a clear cut well defined hard brexit, then they are mote likely to get backing from the hard brexiteers (but leaves little for remainers to vote for).   

Any such new vote should be one of two choices as the first should have been clarifying things. 

Choice one a vote to remain in the EU as things are at present. 

Choice two should be a vote to leave the EU completely cutting all ties across the board with the EU. 

[exile]

Just now, Caledonian Craig said:

Any such new vote should be one of two choices as the first should have been clarifying things. 

Choice one a vote to remain in the EU as things are at present. 

Choice two should be a vote to leave the EU completely cutting all ties across the board with the EU. 

I can't see that happening, it sounds too much like a re-run, of changing the question to the get 'right' answer. Even many remainers (by which I mean MPs supporting remain, but with constituencies full of leavers) would not back that. I think it would only work if it was clarification of what the Leave vote meant.

"How shall we f*ck off?", as Life of Brian might have it. 

[antidote]

7 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I do recall them saying they don't interfere in a country's democratic process. Since the UK voted to leave the EU it will remain that way for them. 

Of course, I suppose, if a second referendum was to be had and a different result returned that would change things. However, I cannot see that happening. It would be too big a climbdown for the egotistical Tories. 

It would be the end of the Tory party as we know it. Maybot and others know this and that’s why she’s sticking with brexit means brexit line, even though she’s not proposing a true brexit. 

It was said over a year ago that the  Westminster government will speak about brexit in two ways, one for domestic consumption and the other for European consumption. 

The chequers agreement was supposed to bridge that gap, but it obviously didn’t with the reaction from members of her cabinet, Michael Barnier and some members of the UK public who will only accept a no deal. 

[Caledonian Craig]

5 hours ago, exile said:

I can't see that happening, it sounds too much like a re-run, of changing the question to the get 'right' answer. Even many remainers (by which I mean MPs supporting remain, but with constituencies full of leavers) would not back that. I think it would only work if it was clarification of what the Leave vote meant.

"How shall we f*ck off?", as Life of Brian might have it. 

No I don't think it was ever clear what a no vote meant. 

If the UK wants to exit the EU the only logical way is with a Hard Brexit cutting all ties with the EU. That was never made in the first vote around. People thought they could cherry pick what they could keep and get rid of from the EU but that was never going to happen. Therefore many perhaps voted for something they were never going to get. 

[Orraloon]

16 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Therefore many perhaps voted for something they were never going to get. 

That happens in pretty much every election. 

[Caledonian Craig]

4 hours ago, Orraloon said:

That happens in pretty much every election. 

Granted but in those election circumstances the consequences of your vote is reversible over time. This one isn't and has far more serious longlasting consequences that will affect so much more.

[ParisInAKilt]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/31/prescription-drug-brexit-pharmacy-supply-chains-shortages#comments

haha

[buckielugger]

On 7/24/2018 at 9:32 AM, phart said:

 

From the comments. Trying to say there is one Jewish voice on this is just sophistry and politics. Again it's partisan politics.

Jewish groups also want the rules to be rejected.

urging “our governments, municipalities, universities and other institutions to reject the IHRA definition.” The definition, it says, is intentionally worded so that legitimate criticisms of Israel and advocacy for Palestinian rights can be equated with antisemitism “as a means to suppress the former.” By confusing the previously clear understanding of antisemitism as hostility towards Jews as Jews, this conflation manages simultaneously to undermine “both the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality and the global struggle against antisemitism”.

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/global-jewish-organizations-affirm-the-boycott-divestment-and-sanctions-movement/

 

Is it not odd that this conflation only seems to be applied to the criticism of Israeli state politics?

Opposition to Soviet communism was never deemed anti-Russian, or opposition to Fascism deemed anti-German/Italian/Spanish etc etc.

There must always be a legitimate position for people to be allowed to take to oppose the politics/practices of any state/government/party whenever & wherever such opposition is felt warranted.

[exile]

2 hours ago, buckielugger said:

 

Is it not odd that this conflation only seems to be applied to the criticism of Israeli state politics?

Opposition to Soviet communism was never deemed anti-Russian, or opposition to Fascism deemed anti-German/Italian/Spanish etc etc.

There must always be a legitimate position for people to be allowed to take to oppose the politics/practices of any state/government/party whenever & wherever such opposition is felt warranted.

Indeed there is plenty of criticism of the Scottish Government without that ever being deemed anti-Scottish.

[Ally Bongo]

I dont think Mark Littlewood will be getting on QT anytime soon again ..and nothing to to with him being pro Scottish Independence

He has just about fucked Gove, Johnson and the PM

 

 

[Ally Bongo]

Mark Carney said today

" We stress tested banks with the sort of shock that could come from a hard Brexit".

House values down by 33%+.

Interest rates up by 4%.

9% unemployment.

4% Economic recession.

[phart]

No point telling us after the vote Mark

[Toepoke]

1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said:

Mark Carney said today

" We stress tested banks with the sort of shock that could come from a hard Brexit".

House values down by 33%+.

Not all bad news then

 

[Ally Bongo]

2 hours ago, Toepoke said:

Not all bad news then

 

Unless you are paying a £100,000 Mortgage on a property thats suddenly only worth £65,000 not to mention the hike in interest rates

[antidote]

6 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Unless you are paying a £100,000 Mortgage on a property thats suddenly only worth £65,000 not to mention the hike in interest rates

Or just about to buy a house that’s desperately needed 😩

[Eisegerwind]

3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Unless you are paying a £100,000 Mortgage on a property thats suddenly only worth £65,000 not to mention the hike in interest rates

Not a problem unless you want to sell. It's called capitalism, and unless you are 'off grid' we are all party to it. Long term, property will never lose value, more so if the property we are talking about is a home and not a profit generating commodity. Just thought of that off the cuff, quite pleased about it.

[Eisegerwind]

Change, whether it is brexit or Scottish independence  will cause instability in the markets. It'll upset the stability of exploitation of the working class, it'll open up the market to the capitalist parasites to exploit the vulneratibility of the poor and once they have taken their gains the market will return to stability and the the markets will rise. Repeat, repeat, repeat............

[TDYER63]

12 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

Change, whether it is brexit or Scottish independence  will cause instability in the markets. It'll upset the stability of exploitation of the working class, it'll open up the market to the capitalist parasites to exploit the vulneratibility of the poor and once they have taken their gains the market will return to stability and the the markets will rise. Repeat, repeat, repeat............

Correct.

We always hear ‘financial markets do not like uncertainty’  and that that is why there is/was so much volatility during Brexit and Indyref. 

Bullshit, there is nothing financial markets like more than uncertainty as it  provides the opportunity of quick gains for the haves, at the expense of the have nots. 

I try not to get too caught up in the scaremongering arguments about Brexit , the same arguments get thrown at Scottish independence as both come with a degree of risk.

The eventual endgame however , in my mind , are quite different. 

[phart]

On 7/31/2018 at 4:15 PM, buckielugger said:

 

Is it not odd that this conflation only seems to be applied to the criticism of Israeli state politics?

Opposition to Soviet communism was never deemed anti-Russian, or opposition to Fascism deemed anti-German/Italian/Spanish etc etc.

There must always be a legitimate position for people to be allowed to take to oppose the politics/practices of any state/government/party whenever & wherever such opposition is felt warranted.

Indeed

 

13 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

Not a problem unless you want to sell. It's called capitalism, and unless you are 'off grid' we are all party to it. Long term, property will never lose value, more so if the property we are talking about is a home and not a profit generating commodity. Just thought of that off the cuff, quite pleased about it.

Yeah! despite my best attempts you can't escape the money system. Also indeed a home is one of the few true needs of society. If you want to fuck about monetising human needs for your gain the Tories will welcome your vote.

[Caledonian Craig]

13 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

Change, whether it is brexit or Scottish independence  will cause instability in the markets. It'll upset the stability of exploitation of the working class

Indeed.

Whichever path Scotland takes in the next decade or so a dark tunnel of struggle financially lies ahead. It may be brought about by Brexit and Scotland staying in the union. But preferably it will be as a new independent country which will be equally tough at first. However, the reward at the end of the dark years as an independent country will be immense compared to stagnation within this crumbling union.

[hampden_loon2878]

49 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Correct.

We always hear ‘financial markets do not like uncertainty’  and that that is why there is/was so much volatility during Brexit and Indyref. 

Bullshit, there is nothing financial markets like more than uncertainty as it  provides the opportunity of quick gains for the haves, at the expense of the have nots. 

I try not to get too caught up in the scaremongering arguments about Brexit , the same arguments get thrown at Scottish independence as both come with a degree of risk.

The eventual endgame however , in my mind , are quite different. 

I agree, many scare mongering arguments have been used on indy and Brexit however when you look at the two visions of scottish indy and brexit they are very different, full independence would have been a gradual thing, currency union, remaining part of the eu ect was to make the transition as smooth and painless as possible, brexit on the other hand seems to be the opposite, the hard brexiteers want as much disruption as possible

[Ally Bongo]

Fuckers

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/flags-on-food-why-the-fuss/

[ParisInAKilt]

57 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Fuckers

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/flags-on-food-why-the-fuss/

“The UK in a Changing Europe promotes rigorous, high-quality and independent research into the complex and ever changing relationship between the UK and the European Union (EU)”

[Clyde1998]

On 8/3/2018 at 8:09 PM, Ally Bongo said:

House values down by 33%+.

Interest rates up by 4%.

In my position, these are great things. 😂

I imagine that the house devaluations would affect London and the South East of England more than anywhere else (ie higher percentage fall), as that's where the most international demand is. 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Clyde1998