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5 minutes ago, exile said:

I do see what you mean but I think the cards fall different for Labour and Tories. The Tories are tearing each other up, May is weak, they are beholden to the DUP,  the right wing press, etc. For Labour, they could almost be a fresh start (the dogs days of Gordon Brown seem along ago), sure they have different wings but Corbyn is more powerful than May, and is not frightened so much of the right wing press as they hate him anyway, and socialism doesn't necessarily scare the younger generation who don't buy papers anyway, and for people with short memories, the notorious floating voters, they might shrug and say let's give the other lot a chance to sort out the mess.  

Agreed it's a complete political clusterf***, whichever Brexit happens will annoy / disappoint as much as it pleases, and likely set Brexiteer against Brexiteer. 

We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on the Labour Party, especially the part of Corbyn being strong. 

Labour may seem to be strong to some people and that, IMO, is due to two factors. The tories are weak with a divided party and Labour has not really been put under the spotlight, like the tories,  as such. No one really knows what the Labour Party stands for. 

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3 minutes ago, antidote said:

We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on the Labour Party, especially the part of Corbyn being strong. 

Labour may seem to be strong to some people and that, IMO, is due to two factors. The tories are weak with a divided party and Labour has not really been put under the spotlight, like the tories,  as such. No one really knows what the Labour Party stands for. 

Yes I'm saying Corbyn is relatively strong - remembering when he first got it people were agitating to oust him, now it's May who's more likely to be sunk by her own side. Sure, Labour still has divisions and not under such scrutiny for now, but that's just the way it goes. 

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26 minutes ago, exile said:

Yes I'm saying Corbyn is relatively strong - remembering when he first got it people were agitating to oust him, now it's May who's more likely to be sunk by her own side. Sure, Labour still has divisions and not under such scrutiny for now, but that's just the way it goes. 

Personally I think that if a GE were to be announced then more of a spotlight would be on Labour, there’s not a good choice down there at the moment, so I think it would still be a hung parliament, but with a closer finish between Labour & Tories. In this scenario the smaller parties would be holding more of a sway. The  SNP could score out of this big time. 

There’s also a possibility of a resurgence of UKIP with the backing of more right wing Tory MPs moving over, more than they had the last time. 

Then it’s all back to the drawing board. 

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I am ambivalent about the EU but one thing is crystal clear to me. 

If the UK is to exit the EU it has to be all out. There is no cherry picking on deals and customs union/single market otherwise why on earth leave at all. The UK is currently in a customs union with the EU but has a big say on all European issues. Should they exit the UK they will have no say in key EU matters that they will want a say in and be left tied into a customs union trading totally on the EU terms and handicapped when discussing deals outwith the EU. It is not rocket science. I liken it to being on a bus journey with the EU being the bus. The UK currently has a comfortable seat there and they are heading in the direction of moving from a seat to travelling on the roof. Lacking safety, security and any control. 

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50 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I am ambivalent about the EU but one thing is crystal clear to me. 

If the UK is to exit the EU it has to be all out. There is no cherry picking on deals and customs union/single market otherwise why on earth leave at all. The UK is currently in a customs union with the EU but has a big say on all European issues. Should they exit the UK they will have no say in key EU matters that they will want a say in and be left tied into a customs union trading totally on the EU terms and handicapped when discussing deals outwith the EU. It is not rocket science. I liken it to being on a bus journey with the EU being the bus. The UK currently has a comfortable seat there and they are heading in the direction of moving from a seat to travelling on the roof. Lacking safety, security and any control. 

Dont worry,  we have £350 mio a week hidden on the bus if we need it 🙄

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From what I saw reported today, May is still in denial, pretending she can both have a cosy deal with the EU, and trade freely with the USA. Surely that's just not possible: a deal that binds us to the EU will see Trump walk away, and a deal that allows us to freely trade with the  US undercutting the EU won't be accepted by the EU. But still she pretends it's all under control and still the media report it as if it's all OK cos she said so.  

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Well she has to say that with Trump here as she is now in a position of tremendous peril. It is why she is being forced to be so sub-servient to Trump as well short of licking his boots. A trade deal with the US is nirvana to Brexiteers and without that it makes leaving the EU trade-wise pointless. 

Like I said yesterday there can be no halfway house on the EU. BoJo is a cretin but fully agree with him that you are in or out and not something halfway in between. It is totally daft going any other way. 

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2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Like I said yesterday there can be no halfway house on the EU. BoJo is a cretin but fully agree with him that you are in or out and not something halfway in between. It is totally daft going any other way. 

I take it you mean it should be either wholly in or out; but a halfway house fudge is still possible, and it's still a possibility that the hard and soft Brexit sides will fight themselves to a stalemate in that particular quagmire and that's what we'll get, even if has to be then presented by the press as a great compromise/pragmatic victory even if it no more than a "polished t*rd" gift-wrapped as a red white and blue Brexit. 

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Yes either fully in or fully out.

At present the UK is tied into EU trade deals but has a voice in the EU so can make a difference on all EU issues and are fully involved with security, scientific research and co-operation and all such things. But now that it is leaving the EU it is attempting to partially remain in a sort of customs deal which totally defeats the main reason for leaving. They'll need to negotiate their deal and have to accept deals on the EU terms and it will restrict trade deals they can do elsewhere. On top of that they will then have no say in security issues across Europe, lose funding from the EU and lose other benefits such as use of the critical European communications satellite system. Hardly, worth losing all of that to remain attached to the EU in a trade deal that will be a watered down version on what they have now.

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On 7/11/2018 at 11:32 AM, Ally Bongo said:

Yes 

It's been predicted for a good while now and it looks as if both of them are in their death throws 

The irony is that the EU was told for decades that migration was going to be an issue but they ignored the warnings and look where it is now

Both the Labour and Conservative parties have also ignored the warnings about their possible own demise 

The difference between Labour and Tory is paper thin 

Caroline Flint 

Stephen Kinnock

Owen Smith

Stella Creasy 

Chukka Umunna et al 

Other people thinking along the same lines as us. 

Mot loathes me to post a link from here, but!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5952835/PETER-OBORNE-predict-Brexit-trigger-collapse-two-party-politics.html

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I'll brlieve it when I see it.  The U.K. Parliament is designed to be a two party system and has been for centuries since the days of the Tories and Whigs.

Individual parties may have their good periods or bad periods but the overall system goes on.

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Watching Andrew Marr interviewing Theresa May. My god the woman is a wreck. She can't answer a question and is so flustered it is embarrassing, i'm squirming listening to her. How she can lead a country and try to negotiate a brexit deal is laughable. She needs to chuck it but christ knows who will take her place? Watching this makes me question the mentality of the people who voted for her and the tory party.

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6 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

The editor of the Financial Times challenging the Director of the BBC

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/07/12/how-the-bbc-lost-the-plot-on-brexit/

The link is to a piece by Nick Cohen... he's a Guardian/Observer columnist... very pro EU, anti Scottish independence, pro Iraq war.

So that explains him attacking BBC for being soft on Leavers, while he was anti BBC for picking a fight with Blair on Iraq, but would be happy for the BBC to be unionist as he doesn't like "nationalism".  

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1 hour ago, exile said:

The link is to a piece by Nick Cohen... he's a Guardian/Observer columnist... very pro EU, anti Scottish independence, pro Iraq war.

So that explains him attacking BBC for being soft on Leavers, while he was anti BBC for picking a fight with Blair on Iraq, but would be happy for the BBC to be unionist as he doesn't like "nationalism".  

Apologies

Lionel Barber who is the editor of the Financial Times tweeted a link to the article by Cohen

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12 hours ago, exile said:

The link is to a piece by Nick Cohen... he's a Guardian/Observer columnist... very pro EU, anti Scottish independence, pro Iraq war.

So that explains him attacking BBC for being soft on Leavers, while he was anti BBC for picking a fight with Blair on Iraq, but would be happy for the BBC to be unionist as he doesn't like "nationalism".  

Exactly, that'd be the same Nick Cohen that attacked the demos at Pacific Quay in 2014.

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Looks like maybot has capitulated to the hard line brexiteers, for the sake of saving her skin. 

Back to square one. 

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21 minutes ago, antidote said:

Looks like maybot has capitulated to the hard line brexiteers, for the sake of saving her skin. 

Back to square one. 

Hasn't she capitulated to everyone on every side? Where the hell does that leave Brexit and more pertinently the Tories?

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20 minutes ago, antidote said:

Looks like maybot has capitulated to the hard line brexiteers, for the sake of saving her skin. 

Back to square one. 

For today but then tomorrow is another day.

This does seem like a political version of whack-a-mole as its impossible to put together any form of "deal" that everyone will be at least able to accept.    

I'm still not convinced but its looking more and more likely that the government will fall and we'll have another general election.   The problem is though that I don't think that's going to resolve anything.

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I wonder how much longer the can can be kicked down the road on this.

Has anyone made a meaningful decision in the last 2 years on this?

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51 minutes ago, phart said:

I wonder how much longer the can can be kicked down the road on this.

Has anyone made a meaningful decision in the last 2 years on this?

Not just Bexit. Think they have done virtually F all to deal with day-to-day business. 

There must surely come a point at which it all just crumbles.

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What makes you think that .........

 
 
 
 

.@theresa_may having capitulated to the rebel Brexiters of the ERG, the rebel Remainers are now so incensed that they are planning to vote tomorrow to force her to sign up for customs union. May is out of Brexit frying pan and into Remainer fire. Ouch

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1 hour ago, mariokempes56 said:

Not just Bexit. Think they have done virtually F all to deal with day-to-day business. 

There must surely come a point at which it all just crumbles.

It's a shambles. Total shambles.

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