The Brexit Thread

[daviebee]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It still smacks of very poor by Yes movement. If you watch all of the televised debates big point scoring was always done by Better Together on the EU membership matter - that is not up for debate. And what they were doing was making a false promise in hindsight. Those in the Yes movement would have known by then about the Brexit vote impending and should have hit back. Their stance should have been that the Tory government are working to end EU membership as we speak and quoted Tory plans. But no - nothing. We rolled over and allowed Better Together to wade in with BS and mop up many thousands of pro-EU voters and make the Yes movement look like they had no plan.

Sure it was fighting dirty by Better Together and if there is an IndyRef2 then Yes2 has to be far better prepared with all the right answers and responses to all the bullshit flung at them from Better Together2. It is Scotland's independence at stake here we are not playing by the Marquess of Queensbury rules.

The bottom line is we needed an absolute bastard in charge of the Yes campaign, the equivalent of their Blair McDougall. Instead we were expected to believe independence would come along if we all sat round the camp fire shoogling tambourines and singing kumbaya.

Edited October 1, 2020 by daviebee

[aaid]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It still smacks of very poor by Yes movement. If you watch all of the televised debates big point scoring was always done by Better Together on the EU membership matter - that is not up for debate. And what they were doing was making a false promise in hindsight. Those in the Yes movement would have known by then about the Brexit vote impending and should have hit back. Their stance should have been that the Tory government are working to end EU membership as we speak and quoted Tory plans. But no - nothing. We rolled over and allowed Better Together to wade in with BS and mop up many thousands of pro-EU voters and make the Yes movement look like they had no plan.

Sure it was fighting dirty by Better Together and if there is an IndyRef2 then Yes2 has to be far better prepared with all the right answers and responses to all the bullshit flung at them from Better Together2. It is Scotland's independence at stake here we are not playing by the Marquess of Queensbury rules.

The problem though is that Yes did exactly that throughout the referendum.  Do I need to post the clips of Blair McDougall saying that no sensible country would make Boris Johnson PM or Ruth Davidson saying there was no chance of being an EU referendum as the Tories wouidn’t won a majority in 2015.  To give them the benefit of the doubt, they probably believed that when they said it.

Those were all in response to Yes making the argument that is what exactly what would it could happen in the result of a no vote and just a couple of notable examples of which there are loads more. 

The problem is that with a lot of people if you say “if you do abc then then xyz will happen” they won’t believe you until it actually happens and then they’ll probably complain that no-one told them.  

You can see loads of similar examples in the Brexit referendum and will no doubt be more to come when that starts to unravel  

 

 

[aaid]

14 minutes ago, daviebee said:

The bottom line is we needed an absolute bastard in charge of the Yes campaign, the equivalent of their Blair McDougall. Instead we were expected to believe independence would come along if we all sat round the camp fire shoogling tambourines and singing kumbaya.

I’d agree that it a more practiced master of the dark arts would’ve been advantageous but I think the fact that the Yes campaign is a pretty broad coalition would make that pretty unlikely. 

Theres a further complication - which your kumbaya reference alludes to - which is a general problem for a lot of left/progressive parties or movements that there is a tendency to be ideologically pure whereas on the right/conservative/reactionary side, they’re less concerned with that and will put up with pretty much anything so long as it gets them what they want - eg Trump.   

A Cummings style CoS for Yes2 would never get out the blocks. 

I don’t think there’s much that you can do about it as it boils down to what people’s genuine belief systems. 

But while we’re at it, that’s some serious revisionism to suggest that an equivalent of Blair McDougall would have helped.  McDougall was pretty incompetent and did his best to lose.   To coin a phrase, he might have won the battle but is suspect he’ll turn out to have won the war.  Had the 2014 result not been so close, we wouldn’t be talking about all this right now - and been talking about little else since 2014. 

[daviebee]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

I’d agree that it a more practiced master of the dark arts would’ve been advantageous but I think the fact that the Yes campaign is a pretty broad coalition would make that pretty unlikely. 

Theres a further complication - which your kumbaya reference alludes to - which is a general problem for a lot of left/progressive parties or movements that there is a tendency to be ideologically pure whereas on the right/conservative/reactionary side, they’re less concerned with that and will put up with pretty much anything so long as it gets them what they want - eg Trump.   

A Cummings style CoS for Yes2 would never get out the blocks. 

I don’t think there’s much that you can do about it as it boils down to what people’s genuine belief systems. 

But while we’re at it, that’s some serious revisionism to suggest that an equivalent of Blair McDougall would have helped.  McDougall was pretty incompetent and did his best to lose.   To coin a phrase, he might have won the battle but is suspect he’ll turn out to have won the war.  Had the 2014 result not been so close, we wouldn’t be talking about all this right now - and been talking about little else since 2014. 

We should've been fighting on 2 fronts. It's basic psychology that some folk want to avoid pain more than they want to gain pleasure and vice versa.  Similarly, some folk need to move towards things while others need to move away from them. The problem was that our leaders thought everyone would be motivated by rainbows, cute puppy dogs and sweet-smelling flowers when some of them needed to have the utter shit scared out of them.

McDougall was hired to do that for the No side and he done it effectively as they won.    I can't remember hearing much from our Blair during the whole run-up or from Denis Canavan who I'm a big admirer of and who I thought would make a huge difference.  We were supposed to have some god of communication working at coordinating everything as well - somebody Noone I think?  In fact I seem to recall that we were pretty much stalled until Alex Salmond took charge.  Of course that then allowed them to portray it as Salmond's referendum and the SNP's referendum.

I admit I'm just working from memory here.  I haven't watched anything about these days since as I just can't bear to.

[ThistleWhistle]

House of Lords knock back Internal Market Bill by biggest majority in 20 years:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2020/october/lords-debates-internal-market-bill/

Not really sure what happens now but it would be pretty 2020 if we saw in the New Year with the House Of Lords on fire.  Unelected lords usurping the will of the common people like Boris and Dom.  

[Caledonian Craig]

On 10/21/2020 at 10:50 AM, ThistleWhistle said:

House of Lords knock back Internal Market Bill by biggest majority in 20 years:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2020/october/lords-debates-internal-market-bill/

Not really sure what happens now but it would be pretty 2020 if we saw in the New Year with the House Of Lords on fire.  Unelected lords usurping the will of the common people like Boris and Dom.  

That was not the Internal Market Bill itself that they knocked back though it was amendments to it recommended by Lord Judge.

[ThistleWhistle]

On 10/25/2020 at 8:56 PM, Caledonian Craig said:

That was not the Internal Market Bill itself that they knocked back though it was amendments to it recommended by Lord Judge.

I think it was in the Independent that I read it but the amendment was more to add some glitter to the turd so if the amendment didn't pass the bill itself has absolutely no chance.  

[exile]

Scottish border checks on Northern Ireland goods 'playing with fire' - Telegraph

as reported in

‘Widespread Disruption’ and Significant risk to Northern Ireland Protocol for trade across Irish Sea

 

[Newryrep]

Biden has family ties to carlingford , he is acutely aware of the border issue - I wouldn’t be expecting a US UK trade deal any time soon if the Tories try and renege 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, Newryrep said:

Biden has family ties to carlingford , he is acutely aware of the border issue - I wouldn’t be expecting a US UK trade deal any time soon if the Tories try and renege 

I'd agree and hence why there was such a long wait for any congratulations from Boris Johnson on his win.;

[phart]

I see Dominic Cummings is fucking off before the consequences of all his decisions start to fully realise.

Seems Kent is full of lorry drivers piss and shit in laybys not sure how accurate that is.

[aaid]

7 minutes ago, phart said:

 

Seems Kent is full of lorry drivers piss and shit in laybys not sure how accurate that is.

Normal state of affairs in parts of Kent.

[phart]

 

[phart]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/17/british-government-food-shortage-uk-fresh-europe-ports-storage-space

 

 

[ThistleWhistle]

10% increase in defence spending (4bn) so we are no longer on the retreat says BoJo.  

Speculation is main chunk of wedge will come from foreign aid budget which seems a bit bizarre given that usually greases the wheels of trade deals.

Would imagine this will play well with a large chunk of the electorate despite it being peanuts compared to US, Russia, China or even EU.

[phart]

50 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

10% increase in defence spending (4bn) so we are no longer on the retreat says BoJo.  

Speculation is main chunk of wedge will come from foreign aid budget which seems a bit bizarre given that usually greases the wheels of trade deals.

Would imagine this will play well with a large chunk of the electorate despite it being peanuts compared to US, Russia, China or even EU.

"The money will fund space and cyber defence projects such as an artificial intelligence agency"

I wish I hadn't picked AI as a topic to deep dive in podcasts when out walking. Every single expert had horror stories about it. Not in the terminator becomes self aware and enslaves us way either. In the insidious way it can learn how to push our "darwinian buttons" and entrench positions (like social media does) sell us shit and manipulate you. It seems the entire field is worried or at least the folk i listened to.

"What these machines have in common is that they display behaviors that make people feel as though they are dealing with sentient creatures that care about their presence. These Darwinian buttons, these triggering behav-iors, include making eye contact, tracking an individual’s movement in a room, and gesturing benignly in acknowledgment of human presence. People who meet these objects feel a desire to nurture them. And with this desire comes the fantasy of reciprocation."

https://www.dhi.ac.uk/san/waysofbeing/data/communities-murphy-turkle-2007.pdf

[Shaundy]

30 minutes ago, phart said:

"The money will fund space and cyber defence projects such as an artificial intelligence agency"

I wish I hadn't picked AI as a topic to deep dive in podcasts when out walking. Every single expert had horror stories about it. Not in the terminator becomes self aware and enslaves us way either. In the insidious way it can learn how to push our "darwinian buttons" and entrench positions (like social media does) sell us shit and manipulate you. It seems the entire field is worried or at least the folk i listened to.

"What these machines have in common is that they display behaviors that make people feel as though they are dealing with sentient creatures that care about their presence. These Darwinian buttons, these triggering behav-iors, include making eye contact, tracking an individual’s movement in a room, and gesturing benignly in acknowledgment of human presence. People who meet these objects feel a desire to nurture them. And with this desire comes the fantasy of reciprocation."

https://www.dhi.ac.uk/san/waysofbeing/data/communities-murphy-turkle-2007.pdf

Sounds just like Tories . Terrifying 

[ThistleWhistle]

4 hours ago, phart said:

"The money will fund space and cyber defence projects such as an artificial intelligence agency"

I wish I hadn't picked AI as a topic to deep dive in podcasts when out walking. Every single expert had horror stories about it. Not in the terminator becomes self aware and enslaves us way either. In the insidious way it can learn how to push our "darwinian buttons" and entrench positions (like social media does) sell us shit and manipulate you. It seems the entire field is worried or at least the folk i listened to.

"What these machines have in common is that they display behaviors that make people feel as though they are dealing with sentient creatures that care about their presence. These Darwinian buttons, these triggering behav-iors, include making eye contact, tracking an individual’s movement in a room, and gesturing benignly in acknowledgment of human presence. People who meet these objects feel a desire to nurture them. And with this desire comes the fantasy of reciprocation."

https://www.dhi.ac.uk/san/waysofbeing/data/communities-murphy-turkle-2007.pdf

C.S.R. (Carrier Symonds Robotics) have won the lucrative contract so we're ready for a tear-up:

 

[davy-hay]

back to topic,  the quicker we get brexit done and come out the other side the better.   A sort of wiping the slate clean if you will.

[hampden_loon2878]

3 hours ago, davy-hay said:

back to topic,  the quicker we get brexit done and come out the other side the better.   A sort of wiping the slate clean if you will.

As someone who votes for brexit, i now dont see any advantage brexit is going to offer apart from rise in support for independence,, the handling of it has been truly shocking 

[wheres the pies]

20 hours ago, davy-hay said:

back to topic,  the quicker we get brexit done and come out the other side the better.   A sort of wiping the slate clean if you will.

Welcome back Bonny 

[Grim Jim]

I smell jobby smeared slate.

[davy-hay]

15 hours ago, Grim Jim said:

I smell jobby smeared slate.

Did ya keech yer breeks 

[exile]

[TDYER63]

11 minutes ago, exile said:

Gove : ’ I think people across the EU will respect International law’. 

Why the fook should they when he and his cronies turn a blind eye to it whenever it suits them.