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Guardian article is accurate, Corbyn is a flop who hasn’t delivered what he said he would. He is also a two faced inept leader, who couldn’t take advantage of the biggest shit storm to hit politics in my lifetime, he absolutely should fuck off. 

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34 minutes ago, kumnio said:

Guardian article is accurate, Corbyn is a flop who hasn’t delivered what he said he would. He is also a two faced inept leader, who couldn’t take advantage of the biggest shit storm to hit politics in my lifetime, he absolutely should fuck off. 

Britain Elects
 
 
 
 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 40% (-1)

LAB: 34% (-5)

LDEM: 10% (+3)

GRN: 4% (-)

UKIP: 4% (+1) via

, 21 Dec - 04 Jan Chgs. w/ 17 Dec

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/britainelects/status/1081678914123124741

It didn’t paste well, but at least you get the figures. 

Edited by antidote
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2 hours ago, kumnio said:

Guardian article is accurate, Corbyn is a flop who hasn’t delivered what he said he would. He is also a two faced inept leader, who couldn’t take advantage of the biggest shit storm to hit politics in my lifetime, he absolutely should fuck off. 

Agree with that, I was meaning more about stoping Brexit 

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On 12/28/2018 at 8:57 PM, thplinth said:

There is a big contradiction here.

The Scottish Nationalist Party is hugely pro EU.

The EU = the dissolution of Nation states in all but name.

The EU has clearly and categorically stated it does not want and has no intention of pushing further political integration.

The line people continue to trot out about the EU becoming some sort of United States of Europe or Superstate are a complete and utter falsehood.

It is made up of (soon to be) 27 independent nations and will remain so, bar the numbers.

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14 minutes ago, DaveyDenoon said:

The EU has clearly and categorically stated it does not want and has no intention of pushing further political integration.

The line people continue to trot out about the EU becoming some sort of United States of Europe or Superstate are a complete and utter falsehood.

It is made up of (soon to be) 27 independent nations and will remain so, bar the numbers.

They say that now, and even if it’s true, that could change over time 

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Just now, ParisInAKilt said:

They say that now, and even if it’s true, that could change over time 

Or not.

And if it did, member states would have the option to withdraw.

Decide for themselves.

Like Scotland can't at the moment.

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3 minutes ago, Flure said:

Or not.

And if it did, member states would have the option to withdraw.

Decide for themselves.

Like Scotland can't at the moment.

It's amazing how many people in a so called "politically aware" Scotland dont get this

Maybe they do and they are just being insidious but still .....

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Does the EU have a long history of lying about this and deliberately mis-selling it as one thing and then doing exactly what they said they would not. "No, no, no it is just a common market they said not a federal europe..." Have they got a history of when told No at the ballot box just circumventing it and doing it anyway? The only reason they are saying this now is that people are rebelling, BREXIT was a massive alarm bell for them but they will resume their long term plans when things turn in their favour again.

When you join the EU you commit to joining the EURO. Only the UK and Denmark have an opt out I think. And there is the essence of the problem. The only currency unions that prove to work  historically are apparently the ones backed by political union. That is what has been driving this the whole time. Without political union the stresses on the EURO (where Germany builds up massive surpluses and Greece, Italy, Spain the opposite) will build and build until either the EURO breaks or they make it a political union (at which point German surpluses get distributed to the other zones like they would if Europe were one country). Personally I think they are using the EURO for exactly this purpose. Once you are in it, it is very perilous getting out (Greece chickened out) and once you are in it, it is self driving train to political union. It is a trap IMHO.

Edited by thplinth
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45 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Does the EU have a long history of lying about this and deliberately mis-selling it as one thing and then doing exactly what they said they would not. "No, no, no it is just a common market they said not a federal europe..." Have they got a history of when told No at the ballot box just circumventing it and doing it anyway? The only reason they are saying this now is that people are rebelling, BREXIT was a massive alarm bell for them but they will resume their long term plans when things turn in their favour again.

When you join the EU you commit to joining the EURO. Only the UK and Denmark have an opt out I think. And there is the essence of the problem. The only currency unions that prove to work  historically are apparently the ones backed by political union. That is what has been driving this the whole time. Without political union the stresses on the EURO (where Germany builds up massive surpluses and Greece, Italy, Spain the opposite) will build and build until either the EURO breaks or they make it a political union (at which point German surpluses get distributed to the other zones like they would if Europe were one country). Personally I think they are using the EURO for exactly this purpose. Once you are in it, it is very perilous getting out (Greece chickened out) and once you are in it, it is self driving train to political union. It is a trap IMHO.

Definitely a trap. 

I think the idea of the EU was a good one but as it’s populated with politicians it’s only natural that it becomes corrupted. 

And before anyone says it, yes I know the UK government isn’t any better. 

Its possible to have serious concerns about both. 

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The requirement of the Euro can be derogated by a vote of the European Council. Article 139 of Lisbon Treaty.

19 members of the EU use the Euro

Bulgaria, Czech Rep, Croatia, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden and the UK dont

The UK and Denmark have opted out of ever using it

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I don't think it's that difficult to get out the EU. All you need is the conviction (or the balls, as BoJo might say).

The complicated bits are things like arranging deals about future relationships,(which is not about leaving itself); dithering because of being tempted to stay because it's hard to give up the benefits that you'll miss; or in the specific case of the UK and/or Republic of Ireland leaving (and possibly Cyprus), to do with complications that already exist between two countries. 

But in essence, there is a clear and simple procedure to leave and it can be done unilaterally. 

This is emphatically not the case of the icy grip of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, unless you're Northern Ireland, which ironically does have an  agreed mechanism to leave, via the Good Friday agreement. Other countries wanting to leave the British Empire in effect had to bomb their way to independence. Not good.

Edited by exile
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4 minutes ago, exile said:

I don't think it's that difficult to get out the EU. All you need is the conviction (or the balls, as BoJo might say).

The complicated bits are things like arranging deals about future relationships,(which is not about leaving itself); dithering because of being tempted to stay because it's hard to give up the benefits that you'll miss; or in the specific case of the UK and/or Republic of Ireland leaving (and possibly Cyprus), to do with complications that already exist between two countries. 

But in essence, there is a clear and simple procedure to leave and it can be done unilaterally. 

This is emphatically not the case of the icy grip of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, unless you're Northern Ireland, which ironically does have an  agreed mechanism to leave, via the Good Friday agreement. Other countries wanting to leave the British Empire in effect had to bomb their way to independence. Not good.

I suspect the UK government doesn’t want to leave, hence the delays and the apparent difficulties.

Not defending the empire but colonisation wasn’t unique to the British. Thankfully we live in more diplomatic times. 

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40 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

True but as we can see, withdrawing isn’t all that easy

At the moment.

There is no template for withdrawal.

There will be in the future (even if it's an example of how not to do it.)

There are templates for independence from the UK. 51 countries have done so since WWII.

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3 minutes ago, Flure said:

At the moment.

There is no template for withdrawal.

There will be in the future (even if it's an example of how not to do it.)

There are templates for independence from the UK. 51 countries have done so since WWII.

Same barriers will exist, template or not, fair play to the EU, got to protect their club. 

Again I think the template for Scotland leaving the UK will be very different to reality, the propaganda seen during the referendum would be next level stuff in the event of a yes vote. 

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17 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I suspect the UK government doesn’t want to leave, hence the delays and the apparent difficulties.

Not defending the empire but colonisation wasn’t unique to the British. Thankfully we live in more diplomatic times. 

Yes I think that is definitely part of the problem, the lack of conviction. The government, and also most every party, is split. They don't know what they want ~(or, as you suggest, don't really want to leave).  I guess my point is, that's not really the fault of the EU. 

Yes I was not singling out Britain as a  particularly bad or difficult colonist. But I guess my point is that Scotland (or Wales) leaving the UK seems as difficult as leaving a colonial master, having to plead for permission even hold a referendum, it does not feel like revoking bonds of a union.  

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Quote

Who can join and when?
All EU Member States , except Denmark and the United Kingdom, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area. To do this they must meet certain conditions known as 'convergence criteria'.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/enlargement-euro-area/who-can-join-and-when_en

Quote

The enlargement of the eurozone is an ongoing process within the European Union (EU). All member states of the European Union, except Denmark and the United Kingdom which negotiated opt-outs from the provisions, are obliged to adopt the euro as their sole currency once they meet the criteria, which include: complying with the debt and deficit criteria outlined by the Stability and Growth Pact, keeping inflation and long-term governmental interest rates below certain reference values, stabilising their currency's exchange rate versus the euro by participating in the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM II), and ensuring that their national laws comply with the ECB statute, ESCB statute and articles 130+131 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The obligation for EU member states to adopt the euro was first outlined by article 109.1j of the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, which became binding on all new member states by the terms of their treaties of accession.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_eurozone

The EURO hold outs (excl UK & Denmark) avoid it for now by deliberately not meeting the criteria. 

It is there in black and white on their own website. 

Now if you are eventually required to join the EURO and the only way the EURO will ultimately work is if political union backs the monetary union then what is the conclusion about where the EU is heading, must head? 

If you have political union but keep the Potemkin village of EU 'nations' then you have been gutted of your nationhood in all but name.

It is the EURO that is the trap not the EU per se but by joining the EU you are made to commit to joining the EURO. Why is that you should be asking.

And this fits everything they have been doing for the last 30 years - perfectly. 

Edited by thplinth
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2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

The requirement of the Euro can be derogated by a vote of the European Council. Article 139 of Lisbon Treaty.

 

 

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Article 139

1. Member States in respect of which the Council has not decided that they fulfil the necessary conditions for the adoption of the euro shall hereinafter be referred to as "Member States with a derogation".

2. The following provisions of the Treaties shall not apply to Member States with a derogation:

(a) adoption of the parts of the broad economic policy guidelines which concern the euro area generally (Article 121(2));

(b) coercive means of remedying excessive deficits (Article 126(9) and (11));

(c) the objectives and tasks of the ESCB (Article 127(1) to (3) and (5));

(d) issue of the euro (Article 128);

(e) acts of the European Central Bank (Article 132);

(f) measures governing the use of the euro (Article 133);

(g) monetary agreements and other measures relating to exchange-rate policy (Article 219);

(h) appointment of members of the Executive Board of the European Central Bank (Article 283(2));

(i) decisions establishing common positions on issues of particular relevance for economic and monetary union within the competent international financial institutions and conferences (Article 138(1));

(j) measures to ensure unified representation within the international financial institutions and conferences (Article 138(2)).

In the Articles referred to in points (a) to (j), "Member States" shall therefore mean Member States whose currency is the euro.

3. Under Chapter IX of the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB, Member States with a derogation and their national central banks are excluded from rights and obligations within the ESCB.

4. The voting rights of members of the Council representing Member States with a derogation shall be suspended for the adoption by the Council of the measures referred to in the Articles listed in paragraph 2, and in the following instances:

(a) recommendations made to those Member States whose currency is the euro in the framework of multilateral surveillance, including on stability programmes and warnings (Article 121(4));

(b) measures relating to excessive deficits concerning those Member States whose currency is the euro (Article 126(6), (7), (8), (12) and (13)).

A qualified majority of the other members of the Council shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(a).

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5 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Same barriers will exist, template or not, fair play to the EU, got to protect their club. 

Again I think the template for Scotland leaving the UK will be very different to reality, the propaganda seen during the referendum would be next level stuff in the event of a yes vote. 

Withdrawing isn't actually that difficult, if you can accept that there will be a price to pay.  The U.K. Government has two major problems though.  They have been directly complicit in - and in some cases had directly encouraged - the belief that there will be no price to pay and we will get all the good bits of being in the EU, eg. free movement of goods within the single market and won't have to put up with the "bad" bits, eg free movement of people and that somehow this will all be sorted out because "they sell more to us than we sell to them".   I think it's been called "cakeism".

The second problem, which is unique to the UK and ROI is the Good Friday Agreement essentially means that the neither country can leave in the way that most Brexiteers see as truly leaving, in some way, shape or form, NI needs remain - to all intents and purposes - in the SM & CU.  

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