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21 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I’m not suggesting they are completely alike but I must have a different interpretation of independence and a different view on what the EU is and does. 

True, a member of the EU is not as independent as a country completely outside, like Iceland, but a member state at least retains the independent will to stay in the club or not.  

As for being abusive, well if EU is an abusive partner then at least we know where the door is, whereas the UK locks the door and says now is "not the time!"    

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4 minutes ago, exile said:

True, a member of the EU is not as independent as a country completely outside, like Iceland, but a member state at least retains the independent will to stay in the club or not.  

As for being abusive, well if EU is an abusive partner then at least we know where the door is, whereas the UK locks the door and says now is "not the time!"    

Just try and leave the club and we’ll make sure your economy fails as best we can ha. Kinda like Scotland leave the union. 

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8 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Just try and leave the club and we’ll make sure your economy fails as best we can ha. Kinda like Scotland leave the union. 

What has that to do with the EU?

The EU is trying to keep as frictionless trade as is compatible with UK being separate entity.  It wants the softest border with the UK imaginable - an invisible one in Ireland. In 2014, the UK was threatening to deliberately punish Scotland by erecting trade barriers and hard borders, even when not in the interests of either country . 

 

 

 

Edited by exile
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3 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Just try and leave the club and we’ll make sure your economy fails as best we can ha. Kinda like Scotland leave the union. 

I’m assuming you mean that England will ensure our economy fails. 

Considering Scotland would be back in the eu and England has a single market agreement with the eu, I find that scenario very unlikely. 

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9 minutes ago, exile said:

What has that to do with the EU?

The EU is trying to keep as frictionless trade as is compatible with UK being separate entity.  It wants the softest border with the UK imaginable - an invisible one in Ireland. In 2014, the UK was threatening to deliberately punish Scotland by erecting trade barriers and hard borders, even when not in the interests of either country . 

 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, antidote said:

I’m assuming you mean that England will ensure our economy fails. 

Considering Scotland would be back in the eu and England has a single market agreement with the eu, I find that scenario very unlikely. 

I’m thinking back to 2014 and see many parallels with the situation now, not identical but I see Carney has been summoned again to predict economic doom. 

I’m boring myself now, I don’t like the EU nor Westminster and as naive as it probably is, want Scotland to be free of both. 

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22 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

 

I’m thinking back to 2014 and see many parallels with the situation now, not identical but I see Carney has been summoned again to predict economic doom. 

I’m boring myself now, I don’t like the EU nor Westminster and as naive as it probably is, want Scotland to be free of both. 

Yes there are parallels, but in your examples it's not the EU who is the villain.

In the first case, by economic failure, if you mean Paris or Dublin wanting to nick London finance jobs, that's nothing to do with the EU but individual cities and countries in normal economic competition, and no different from Britain wanting freedom to undercut or do deals with other countries, which the Leavers are ardently advocating themselves.

In the second case, the threats of doom are coming from the Bank of England, not the EU. I think the difference here is really not trivial but substantial. The parallel with Carney would be if in 2014 the Scottish Govt had been unionist - say labour, wanting to kill independence stone dead, maybe Wendy Alexander, calls the SNPs bluff and calls a referendum and then Scottish office/executive finance chief proceeds to warn the country of economic doom of 'separation''.  Or the parallel with what Osborne did coming to Edinburgh would be if some European Central Banker flew in from Brussels in 2016 and started warning Britain they were too wee, poor and stupid to survive outside the European economy. It just didn't happen!   

Of course that doesn't stop people wanting to be completely independent of both - obviously it's a completely logical and coherent position - but I think the demonisation of the EU is hugely exaggerated and misleading. Brexiteer and even many Remainer Unionists would simply not put up with an EU structured the way the UK is if the boot was on the other foot..

  

 

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2 minutes ago, exile said:

Yes there are parallels, but in your examples it's not the EU who is the villain.

In the first case, by economic failure, if you mean Paris or Dublin wanting to nick London finance jobs, that's nothing to do with the EU but individual cities and countries in normal economic competition, and no different from Britain wanting freedom to undercut or do deals with other countries, which the Leavers are ardently advocating themselves.

In the second case, the threats of doom are coming from the Bank of England, not the EU. I think the difference here is really not trivial but substantial. The parallel with Carney would be if in 2014 the Scottish Govt had been unionist - say labour, wanting to kill independence stone dead, maybe Wendy Alexander, calls the SNPs bluff and calls a referendum and then Scottish office/executive finance chief proceeds to warn the country of economic doom of 'separation''.  Or the parallel with what Osborne did coming to Edinburgh would be if some European Central Banker flew in from Brussels in 2016 and started warning Britain they were too wee, poor and stupid to survive outside the European economy. It just didn't happen!   

 

Not saying the EU is the villain. They are in a tremendous position of power to just sit back and watch the UK establishment do what it needs to do to stop the UK leaving the EU as was voted for. At least that’s how it plays out in the press, nobody knows what’s happening behind the scenes. 

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54 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Just try and leave the club and we’ll make sure your economy fails as best we can ha. Kinda like Scotland leave the union. 

I think the EU have been extremely accommodating; very tolerant of the incoherent ramblings of the UK Government

 

 

The EU should have just said, 'Pay your bill and f*ck off'.

 

I'm sure the EU's recently signed trade deals with Canada and Japan would soften the loss of the UK trade.

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8 minutes ago, Rich NATA said:

I think the EU have been extremely accommodating; very tolerant of the incoherent ramblings of the UK Government

The EU should have just said, 'Pay your bill and f*ck off'.

I'm sure the EU's recently signed trade deals with Canada and Japan would soften the loss of the UK trade.

There is something underlying sinister and crony capitalist about these trade deals. As a way of punishing nation states that dare to go it alone or attempt to reject neoliberalism (remember that term?) Not that the Tories or Labour are the solution to any of this. 

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4 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

There is something underlying sinister and crony capitalist about these trade deals. As a way of punishing nation states that dare to go it alone or attempt to reject neoliberalism (remember that term?) Not that the Tories or Labour are the solution to any of this. 

How are the EU punishing the UK?

 

The UK wants to leave and the UK is free to leave; so why doesn't it just f*cking leave?!

Why is Theresa May trying to wangle a deal? The UK wanted to leave, so it should just go.

No deals. Just pay the bill and leave.

 

Don't get me wrong; I think it would be absolutely suicidal for the UK economy, but f*ck it....

The Boris's and Rees-Mogg's in this are fucking mental, as are the people who voted for it, but hey, fuck it...

Let's follow these pricks...

 

THEN England and Wales gets what it wants and in the not too distant future - when the shit hits the fan and the economy tanks - our 55% will hopefully wake up and vote yes.

 

P.S. only realised this today... Only London, Northern Ireland and Scotland voted to stay in!!!

Outside of London, not one single region in England voted to stay in the EU...

I Never knew that... That's f*cking astonishing.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Rich NATA said:

How are the EU punishing the UK?

 

The UK wants to leave and the UK is free to leave; so why doesn't it just f*cking leave?!

Why is Theresa May trying to wangle a deal? The UK wanted to leave, so it should just go.

No deals. Just pay the bill and leave.

 

Don't get me wrong; I think it would be absolutely suicidal for the UK economy, but f*ck it....

The Boris's and Rees-Mogg's in this are fucking mental, as are the people who voted for it, but hey, fuck it...

Let's follow these pricks...

 

THEN England and Wales gets what it wants and in the not too distant future - when the shit hits the fan and the economy tanks - our 55% will hopefully wake up and vote yes.

 

P.S. only realised this today... Only London, Northern Ireland and Scotland voted to stay in!!!

Outside of London, not one single region in England voted to stay in the EU...

I Never knew that... That's f*cking astonishing.

 

 

I suspect that the UK doesn’t want to leave and that’s why May has been puppetted in to apparently negotiate an, on the face of it, unacceptable deal that could lead to either a Brexit in name only or staying in the EU, with or without another vote. 

Again I’m not saying the EU is punishing the UK, I just think there’s something inherently wrong with trade deals in general that can be used to punish nation states if they try and reject neoliberal polices or vote a certain why in referendums. 

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15 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

I think that is a very important interview. The british governments own analysis saying that  a worst case Brexit , which is really severe, is like losing Scotlands output from Britain. Simple information like that  is what people need to be aware of . 

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16 hours ago, exile said:

Come on, the two unions are quite different.

The EU is a club of nation states, as a member you can leave unilaterally any time you like: just trigger article 50. But the UK has no equivalent of article 50; Scotland is not free to leave any time of its choosing. That power is held unilaterally by Westminster.

 

I was in England  2 weeks ago visting customers along with an English colleague. The customer is an  exporter, much of the conversation was about Brexit.

Everyone agreed it was a bit of a mess, then my colleague pipes up with ‘ you lot and Jimmy Krankie will be looking for independance again’ .

He has no idea what my politcal persuasion is. Infact i am certain he just assumes I voted No.  

The client then says ‘ oh no they wont, we wont let them’ . 

Err hello, incase you hadnt noticed I am fcking sitting here ! 

He then goes on to say ‘ the welsh government was complaining this morning that Wales was not once mentioned in the withdrawal agreement . Why would they, its not about the regions.’

That really is how the other nations within the UK are seen , not just by the british government but by many ordinary people. Not as a countries, but as regions. I may be overly sensitive about this but I do think it is important to recognise the difference. 

I would like to say this was a unique situation, unfortunately I experience it regularly. There are many lovely English customers who , whilst perhaps not agreeing with it, do sympathise with the situation, but there are more who see us simply as snivelling whingers . 

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15 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

 

I’m boring myself now, I don’t like the EU nor Westminster and as naive as it probably is, want Scotland to be free of both. 

I think freeing ourselves of both is highly unlikely . I cannot see a situation where there will be enough public support to be so bold. 

If you had to choose , what would it be ? Independance in EU , in the union and out the EU, or where we currently are ?

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1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

I think that is a very important interview. The british governments own analysis saying that  a worst case Brexit , which is really severe, is like losing Scotlands output from Britain. Simple information like that  is what people need to be aware of . 

It maybe hasn't clicked with the BBC yet that those figures show that Scotland is clearly not subsidised as they like to tell us.  If we were, losing our output would make them richer.  The subsidy junkie myth blown out the water.  Amazing how many things are being let slip as the Brexit catastrophe unravels.

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28 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I think freeing ourselves of both is highly unlikely . I cannot see a situation where there will be enough public support to be so bold. 

If you had to choose , what would it be ? Independance in EU , in the union and out the EU, or where we currently are ?

Not sure. On the face of “independence” from the UK and being part of the EU, without the euro would appear to be better than being part of the UK, in or out the EU. 

As a cynic; it’s probably all much of the same, Just trading rulers and playing a rigged game.

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4 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Not sure. On the face of “independence” from the UK and being part of the EU, without the euro would appear to be better than being part of the UK, in or out the EU. 

As a cynic; it’s probably all much of the same, Just trading rulers and playing a rigged game.

I agree, you will never rid yourself completely of the powerful players, its really more a game of damage limitation.  

I feel that middle ground, ie being part of the EU , without the Euro, is the best chance Scotland has of gaining independence.  

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2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I agree, you will never rid yourself completely of the powerful players, its really more a game of damage limitation.  

I feel that middle ground, ie being part of the EU , without the Euro, is the best chance Scotland has of gaining independence.  

Agreed. Even If it’s just the illusion of independence, weakening the power of Westminster is step one towards something better. 

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reading a few of the italian and spanish papers recently, I didn't quite appreciate how much say the EU had in their budgets.

Can only work within certain tramlines; do not deviate or sanctions and money market signals will be drawn against you.

I'm pro remain and want Scotland in the EU but I wouldn't want Junker meeting Derek McKay or John Swinney to dictate what our debt levels must be.  

We should, if possible, keep our own currency if we become an EU member.

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1 hour ago, PapofGlencoe said:

reading a few of the italian and spanish papers recently, I didn't quite appreciate how much say the EU had in their budgets.

This is because they are members of the Eurozone, no?

Like Greece - and that was why the rest of the Eurozone members could have so much of a say on their internal finances.

You want to be in the club? You stick to the rules.

Those outside the Eurozone have a free hand.

I believe.

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On 11/29/2018 at 8:13 PM, ParisInAKilt said:

Playing devils advocate, Scotland had a vote and voted to remain in the UK. How often do you think a referendum on independence is acceptable?

It’s a massive con. Nothing but a divide and conquer exercise that’s worked perfectly. 

It is acceptable as long as the question and strength of desire remains significant and it certainly does considering over a million support independence and considering that Scotland has voted consistently for a SNP government in Scotland for so long now. And referendums are much like elections - people are entitled to change their mind and get another opportunity to right that wrong decision. One independence referendum in 300+ years in any case is hardly overkill.

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16 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It is acceptable as long as the question and strength of desire remains significant and it certainly does considering over a million support independence and considering that Scotland has voted consistently for a SNP government in Scotland for so long now. And referendums are much like elections - people are entitled to change their mind and get another opportunity to right that wrong decision. One independence referendum in 300+ years in any case is hardly overkill.

Aye I get all that. It’s not going away anytime soon. But another no vote would settle it for at least a decade you’d imagine.

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