The Brexit Thread

[ParisInAKilt]

1 minute ago, antidote said:

Jobs, economy, businesses rely heavily on the single market. 

Almost like once you’re in you can’t leave. Doesn’t sound very democratic. 

[antidote]

12 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Almost like once you’re in you can’t leave. Doesn’t sound very democratic. 

Unfortunately no, but look at it from the eu’s point of view. 

Its their market and you have to play by their rules. Norway?

They just can’t let a member go politically, but let them cherry pick back into the lucrative single market. If that was the case then most other member states would do the same and then you wouldn’t have an eu, just a trading block. 

Btw, when have Westminster ever  been democratic.

Think of the old empire and the act of union here

Edited November 29, 2018 by antidote

[antidote]

11 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Almost like once you’re in you can’t leave. Doesn’t sound very democratic. 

Hotel California 🙄

[ParisInAKilt]

1 minute ago, antidote said:

Unfortunately no, but look at it from the eu’s point of view. 

Its their market and you have to play by their rules. Norway?

They just can’t let a member go politically, but let them cherry pick back into the lucrative single market. If that was the case then most other member states would do the same and then you wouldn’t have an eu, just a trading block. 

Btw, when have Westminster ever  been democratic.

Think of the old empire here. 

Exactly. Which is why I find people defending and wanting to maintain it bizarre.

My criticism of the EU isn’t an endorsement of Westminster. Which isn’t democratic either. 

[antidote]

1 minute ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Exactly. Which is why I find people defending and wanting to maintain it bizarre.

My criticism of the EU isn’t an endorsement of Westminster. Which isn’t democratic either. 

What a lot of people don’t realise is that most, if not all, countries in the world are not truly independent, going by some Brexiteers thinking, when it is such a global society now. 

For instance the USA government  can easily dictate your interest rates, exchange rates etc by simply imposing sanctions, Turkey, Iran, Russia for example. Or their banks can take a massive hit and that effect is felt around the world. 

Unfortunately the USA can crush our economy on a whim if it really wanted too. 

The old bt line of you’re not really independent if the boe sets your interest rates is somewhat true, but so is the scenario above true. 

The uk for decades periodically signed up to a lot of perceived bad things in the eu, the Lisbon treaty, CFP, a mute point imo, etc.

Successive westminster governments are to blame for that. 

[ParisInAKilt]

4 minutes ago, antidote said:

What a lot of people don’t realise is that most, if not all, countries in the world are not truly independent, going by some Brexiteers thinking, when it is such a global society now. 

For instance the USA government  can easily dictate your interest rates, exchange rates etc by simply imposing sanctions, Turkey, Iran, Russia for example. Or their banks can take a massive hit and that effect is felt around the world. 

Unfortunately the USA can crush our economy on a whim if it really wanted too. 

The old bt line of you’re not really independent if the boe sets your interest rates is somewhat true, but so is the scenario above true. 

The uk for decades periodically signed up to a lot of perceived bad things in the eu, the Lisbon treaty, CFP, a mute point imo, etc.

Successive westminster governments are to blame for that. 

Aye can’t disagree with any of that. Independence is a myth unfortunately. If you’re lucky enough to be able to vote for a good government, international influences will make it fail, economically or as we’ve seen in Latin America, by assination. 

[Caledonian Craig]

23 minutes ago, antidote said:

What a lot of people don’t realise is that most, if not all, countries in the world are not truly independent, going by some Brexiteers thinking, when it is such a global society now. 

For instance the USA government  can easily dictate your interest rates, exchange rates etc by simply imposing sanctions, Turkey, Iran, Russia for example. Or their banks can take a massive hit and that effect is felt around the world. 

Unfortunately the USA can crush our economy on a whim if it really wanted too. 

The old bt line of you’re not really independent if the boe sets your interest rates is somewhat true, but so is the scenario above true. 

The uk for decades periodically signed up to a lot of perceived bad things in the eu, the Lisbon treaty, CFP, a mute point imo, etc.

Successive westminster governments are to blame for that. 

The point is though I'd sooner see Scotland fail on its own merits making its own key decisions in this world rather than being kept under the thumb and told what it will or won't do. Okay if Scots make a mess of it I'd feel far at ease it was that way than being under the conditions of Westminster.

[antidote]

15 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The point is though I'd sooner see Scotland fail on its own merits making its own key decisions in this world rather than being kept under the thumb and told what it will or won't do. Okay if Scots make a mess of it I'd feel far at ease it was that way than being under the conditions of Westminster.

Totally agree with you on this 👍🏻

[ParisInAKilt]

22 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The point is though I'd sooner see the UK fail on its own merits making its own key decisions in this world rather than being kept under the thumb and told what it will or won't do. Okay if Brits make a mess of it I'd feel far at ease it was that way than being under the conditions of the EU.

[Ally Bongo]

Interesting

 

[ParisInAKilt]

24 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Interesting

 

This is the sort of garbage the mainstream media peddles as news. 

[Ally Bongo]

31 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

This is the sort of garbage the mainstream media peddles as news. 

Asking people what they think ?

[ParisInAKilt]

4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Asking people what they think ?

Handpicking a small amount to suit an agenda. Seen this pish all the time during 2014. 

[Ally Bongo]

1 minute ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Handpicking a small amount to suit an agenda. Seen this pish all the time during 2014. 

First i knew that CNN was all for Scottish Independence

[ParisInAKilt]

2 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

First i knew that CNN was all for Scottish Independence

They probably weren’t and you’d be the first to moan if they did a similar piece handpicking 4 or 5 no voters 

[Ally Bongo]

28 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

They probably weren’t and you’d be the first to moan if they did a similar piece handpicking 4 or 5 no voters 

How the fuck do YOU know that they didnt find anyone willing to be an Uncle Tam or stick up for Theresa on TV ?

Probably some of the folk they asked wouldnt have had a scooby

First to moan ?

After all the insidious pro-union anti SNP propaganda we have had to suffer from the MSM ?

Loaded audiences on Question Time and election debates ?

Edited November 29, 2018 by Ally Bongo

[ParisInAKilt]

4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

How the fuck do YOU know that they didnt find anyone willing to be an Uncle Tam or stick up for Theresa on TV ?

Probably some of the folk they asked wouldnt have had a scooby

First to moan ?

After all the insidious pro-union anti SNP propaganda we have had to suffer from the MSM ?

Loaded audiences on Question Time and election debates ?

You’re either naive or don’t care about the underhand tactics of the media when they are producing stuff you agree with. 

You’re completely correct about the anti Snp and QT stuff, which is why I think it’s important to take a step back and think what’s going on here when you find yourself agreeing with the msm. 

[Alibi]

6 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Like it or not Scotland voted to stay, the propagandha etc was strong and undoubtedly influenced the vote, assuming it wasn’t rigged. 

Leaving the UK to join the EU would just be leaving one abusive relationship to join another

Rubbish.  The EU doesn't routinely ignore its members' wishes, or treat them in the way the rUK (effectively England) treats Scotland.  It may not be perfect (and the EEA is a viable alternative in a majority of Scots preferred that), but the UK is undoubtedly the political equivalent of an abusive relationship.  But hey, if you're happy with that (and I don't think you are), fine.  Just don't complain about us getting shafted repeatedly and treated like dirt.  The UK is the one we most need to get out of, then we can decide our own path.

[ParisInAKilt]

7 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Rubbish.  The EU doesn't routinely ignore its members' wishes, or treat them in the way the rUK (effectively England) treats Scotland.  It may not be perfect (and the EEA is a viable alternative in a majority of Scots preferred that), but the UK is undoubtedly the political equivalent of an abusive relationship.  But hey, if you're happy with that (and I don't think you are), fine.  Just don't complain about us getting shafted repeatedly and treated like dirt.  The UK is the one we most need to get out of, then we can decide our own path.

I’m almost certain I could find at least a couple of examples of the EU ignoring member wishes. But would it make a difference?

Good luck with deciding on that own path. I suspect we’ll be debating on the constitution for decades. 

[Ally Bongo]

 

[Ally Bongo]

 

[exile]

6 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

 Leaving the UK to join the EU would just be leaving one abusive relationship to join another

Come on, the two unions are quite different.

The EU is a club of nation states, as a member you can leave unilaterally any time you like: just trigger article 50. But the UK has no equivalent of article 50; Scotland is not free to leave any time of its choosing. That power is held unilaterally by Westminster.

It's the UK that is the "union" in name only, in some ways. Whenever they choose, they switch to say it's a unitary integrated state, like when they say the UK as a whole voted to leave so the whole of the UK will leave together. 

The EU only does things its member states are happy with. Imagine the EU doing something Merkel didn't want! It just wouldn't happen. But the British Government does whatever it wants, can overrule or ignore its member (devolved) nations any time it likes. Chalk and cheese.  

Edited November 29, 2018 by exile

[ParisInAKilt]

2 minutes ago, exile said:

Come on, the two unions are quite different. The EU is a club of nation states, as a member you can leave unilaterally any time you like, just trigger article 50. It's the UK that is the "union" in name only, in some ways. Whenever they choose, they switch to say it's a unitary integrated state, like when they say the UK as a whole voted to leave so the whole of the UK will leave together. And the UK has no equivalent of articles 50; Scotland is not free to leave any time of its choosing. That power is held unilaterally by Westminster.

The EU only does things its member states are happy with. Imagine the EU doing something Merkel didn't want! It just wouldn't happen. But the British Government does whatever it wants, can overrule or ignore its member (devolved) nations any time it likes. Chalk and cheese.  

I’m not suggesting they are completely alike but I must have a different interpretation of independence and a different view on what the EU is and does. 

[Caledonian Craig]

8 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I’m not suggesting they are completely alike but I must have a different interpretation of independence and a different view on what the EU is and does. 

As exile says though, at least within the EU you can exit when you choose if you don't like how the EU runs things. That is not the case for Scotland in this Union. Another thing that cannot be denied is that Brexit is a con. The UK are not leaving the EU. They are moving from being full members with influence tied into trade deals to outcasts with no say still tied into EU deals. Insane.

[ParisInAKilt]

8 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

As exile says though, at least within the EU you can exit when you choose if you don't like how the EU runs things. That is not the case for Scotland in this Union. Another thing that cannot be denied is that Brexit is a con. The UK are not leaving the EU. They are moving from being full members with influence tied into trade deals to outcasts with no say still tied into EU deals. Insane.

Playing devils advocate, Scotland had a vote and voted to remain in the UK. How often do you think a referendum on independence is acceptable?

It’s a massive con. Nothing but a divide and conquer exercise that’s worked perfectly.