exile Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 What would be the terms of a "people's vote"? Hard to see one being a rerun of remain/leave. A three way (in, out with deal, no deal) would likely be resisted by the leavers as it would split the leave vote. A two way vote (leave with deal, or no deal) might work, as it guarantees to fulfil the previous referendum (ie as long as both options involve leaving the EU) but otherwise the 'deal' could be as close to staying in as they risked phrasing it. If they make the deal too close to the EU, more will be tempted to take their chances with no deal. If they make the deal more like a clear cut well defined hard brexit, then they are mote likely to get backing from the hard brexiteers (but leaves little for remainers to vote for). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, exile said: What would be the terms of a "people's vote"? Hard to see one being a rerun of remain/leave. A three way (in, out with deal, no deal) would likely be resisted by the leavers as it would split the leave vote. A two way vote (leave with deal, or no deal) might work, as it guarantees to fulfil the previous referendum (ie as long as both options involve leaving the EU) but otherwise the 'deal' could be as close to staying in as they risked phrasing it. If they make the deal too close to the EU, more will be tempted to take their chances with no deal. If they make the deal more like a clear cut well defined hard brexit, then they are mote likely to get backing from the hard brexiteers (but leaves little for remainers to vote for). Any such new vote should be one of two choices as the first should have been clarifying things. Choice one a vote to remain in the EU as things are at present. Choice two should be a vote to leave the EU completely cutting all ties across the board with the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 Just now, Caledonian Craig said: Any such new vote should be one of two choices as the first should have been clarifying things. Choice one a vote to remain in the EU as things are at present. Choice two should be a vote to leave the EU completely cutting all ties across the board with the EU. I can't see that happening, it sounds too much like a re-run, of changing the question to the get 'right' answer. Even many remainers (by which I mean MPs supporting remain, but with constituencies full of leavers) would not back that. I think it would only work if it was clarification of what the Leave vote meant. "How shall we f*ck off?", as Life of Brian might have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antidote Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 7 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: I do recall them saying they don't interfere in a country's democratic process. Since the UK voted to leave the EU it will remain that way for them. Of course, I suppose, if a second referendum was to be had and a different result returned that would change things. However, I cannot see that happening. It would be too big a climbdown for the egotistical Tories. It would be the end of the Tory party as we know it. Maybot and others know this and that’s why she’s sticking with brexit means brexit line, even though she’s not proposing a true brexit. It was said over a year ago that the Westminster government will speak about brexit in two ways, one for domestic consumption and the other for European consumption. The chequers agreement was supposed to bridge that gap, but it obviously didn’t with the reaction from members of her cabinet, Michael Barnier and some members of the UK public who will only accept a no deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 5 hours ago, exile said: I can't see that happening, it sounds too much like a re-run, of changing the question to the get 'right' answer. Even many remainers (by which I mean MPs supporting remain, but with constituencies full of leavers) would not back that. I think it would only work if it was clarification of what the Leave vote meant. "How shall we f*ck off?", as Life of Brian might have it. No I don't think it was ever clear what a no vote meant. If the UK wants to exit the EU the only logical way is with a Hard Brexit cutting all ties with the EU. That was never made in the first vote around. People thought they could cherry pick what they could keep and get rid of from the EU but that was never going to happen. Therefore many perhaps voted for something they were never going to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 16 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said: Therefore many perhaps voted for something they were never going to get. That happens in pretty much every election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 4 hours ago, Orraloon said: That happens in pretty much every election. Granted but in those election circumstances the consequences of your vote is reversible over time. This one isn't and has far more serious longlasting consequences that will affect so much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/31/prescription-drug-brexit-pharmacy-supply-chains-shortages#comments haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckielugger Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 On 7/24/2018 at 9:32 AM, phart said: From the comments. Trying to say there is one Jewish voice on this is just sophistry and politics. Again it's partisan politics. Jewish groups also want the rules to be rejected. urging “our governments, municipalities, universities and other institutions to reject the IHRA definition.” The definition, it says, is intentionally worded so that legitimate criticisms of Israel and advocacy for Palestinian rights can be equated with antisemitism “as a means to suppress the former.” By confusing the previously clear understanding of antisemitism as hostility towards Jews as Jews, this conflation manages simultaneously to undermine “both the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality and the global struggle against antisemitism”. https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/global-jewish-organizations-affirm-the-boycott-divestment-and-sanctions-movement/ Is it not odd that this conflation only seems to be applied to the criticism of Israeli state politics? Opposition to Soviet communism was never deemed anti-Russian, or opposition to Fascism deemed anti-German/Italian/Spanish etc etc. There must always be a legitimate position for people to be allowed to take to oppose the politics/practices of any state/government/party whenever & wherever such opposition is felt warranted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, buckielugger said: Is it not odd that this conflation only seems to be applied to the criticism of Israeli state politics? Opposition to Soviet communism was never deemed anti-Russian, or opposition to Fascism deemed anti-German/Italian/Spanish etc etc. There must always be a legitimate position for people to be allowed to take to oppose the politics/practices of any state/government/party whenever & wherever such opposition is felt warranted. Indeed there is plenty of criticism of the Scottish Government without that ever being deemed anti-Scottish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I dont think Mark Littlewood will be getting on QT anytime soon again ..and nothing to to with him being pro Scottish Independence He has just about fucked Gove, Johnson and the PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Mark Carney said today " We stress tested banks with the sort of shock that could come from a hard Brexit". House values down by 33%+. Interest rates up by 4%. 9% unemployment. 4% Economic recession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 No point telling us after the vote Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said: Mark Carney said today " We stress tested banks with the sort of shock that could come from a hard Brexit". House values down by 33%+. Not all bad news then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Toepoke said: Not all bad news then Unless you are paying a £100,000 Mortgage on a property thats suddenly only worth £65,000 not to mention the hike in interest rates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antidote Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Unless you are paying a £100,000 Mortgage on a property thats suddenly only worth £65,000 not to mention the hike in interest rates Or just about to buy a house that’s desperately needed 😩 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Unless you are paying a £100,000 Mortgage on a property thats suddenly only worth £65,000 not to mention the hike in interest rates Not a problem unless you want to sell. It's called capitalism, and unless you are 'off grid' we are all party to it. Long term, property will never lose value, more so if the property we are talking about is a home and not a profit generating commodity. Just thought of that off the cuff, quite pleased about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Change, whether it is brexit or Scottish independence will cause instability in the markets. It'll upset the stability of exploitation of the working class, it'll open up the market to the capitalist parasites to exploit the vulneratibility of the poor and once they have taken their gains the market will return to stability and the the markets will rise. Repeat, repeat, repeat............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 12 hours ago, Eisegerwind said: Change, whether it is brexit or Scottish independence will cause instability in the markets. It'll upset the stability of exploitation of the working class, it'll open up the market to the capitalist parasites to exploit the vulneratibility of the poor and once they have taken their gains the market will return to stability and the the markets will rise. Repeat, repeat, repeat............ Correct. We always hear ‘financial markets do not like uncertainty’ and that that is why there is/was so much volatility during Brexit and Indyref. Bullshit, there is nothing financial markets like more than uncertainty as it provides the opportunity of quick gains for the haves, at the expense of the have nots. I try not to get too caught up in the scaremongering arguments about Brexit , the same arguments get thrown at Scottish independence as both come with a degree of risk. The eventual endgame however , in my mind , are quite different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 On 7/31/2018 at 4:15 PM, buckielugger said: Is it not odd that this conflation only seems to be applied to the criticism of Israeli state politics? Opposition to Soviet communism was never deemed anti-Russian, or opposition to Fascism deemed anti-German/Italian/Spanish etc etc. There must always be a legitimate position for people to be allowed to take to oppose the politics/practices of any state/government/party whenever & wherever such opposition is felt warranted. Indeed 13 hours ago, Eisegerwind said: Not a problem unless you want to sell. It's called capitalism, and unless you are 'off grid' we are all party to it. Long term, property will never lose value, more so if the property we are talking about is a home and not a profit generating commodity. Just thought of that off the cuff, quite pleased about it. Yeah! despite my best attempts you can't escape the money system. Also indeed a home is one of the few true needs of society. If you want to fuck about monetising human needs for your gain the Tories will welcome your vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 13 hours ago, Eisegerwind said: Change, whether it is brexit or Scottish independence will cause instability in the markets. It'll upset the stability of exploitation of the working class Indeed. Whichever path Scotland takes in the next decade or so a dark tunnel of struggle financially lies ahead. It may be brought about by Brexit and Scotland staying in the union. But preferably it will be as a new independent country which will be equally tough at first. However, the reward at the end of the dark years as an independent country will be immense compared to stagnation within this crumbling union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 49 minutes ago, TDYER63 said: Correct. We always hear ‘financial markets do not like uncertainty’ and that that is why there is/was so much volatility during Brexit and Indyref. Bullshit, there is nothing financial markets like more than uncertainty as it provides the opportunity of quick gains for the haves, at the expense of the have nots. I try not to get too caught up in the scaremongering arguments about Brexit , the same arguments get thrown at Scottish independence as both come with a degree of risk. The eventual endgame however , in my mind , are quite different. I agree, many scare mongering arguments have been used on indy and Brexit however when you look at the two visions of scottish indy and brexit they are very different, full independence would have been a gradual thing, currency union, remaining part of the eu ect was to make the transition as smooth and painless as possible, brexit on the other hand seems to be the opposite, the hard brexiteers want as much disruption as possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 Fuckers http://ukandeu.ac.uk/flags-on-food-why-the-fuss/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 57 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Fuckers http://ukandeu.ac.uk/flags-on-food-why-the-fuss/ “The UK in a Changing Europe promotes rigorous, high-quality and independent research into the complex and ever changing relationship between the UK and the European Union (EU)” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde1998 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 (edited) On 8/3/2018 at 8:09 PM, Ally Bongo said: House values down by 33%+. Interest rates up by 4%. In my position, these are great things. 😂 I imagine that the house devaluations would affect London and the South East of England more than anywhere else (ie higher percentage fall), as that's where the most international demand is. Edited August 5, 2018 by Clyde1998 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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