The Brexit Thread

[exile]

OK so here are two opposing alternative views, one from Jewish News, one from 'the electronic intifada''

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-nec-defies-chief-rabbi-to-adopt-new-anti-semitism-code/

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/new-assault-corbyn-aims-ban-criticism-israel-labour

Both agree that the nub of the matter is whether “claiming that the State of Israel is a racist endeavor” is anti-Semitic.  

[phart]

56 minutes ago, exile said:

OK so here are two opposing alternative views, one from Jewish News, one from 'the electronic intifada''

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-nec-defies-chief-rabbi-to-adopt-new-anti-semitism-code/

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/new-assault-corbyn-aims-ban-criticism-israel-labour

Both agree that the nub of the matter is whether “claiming that the State of Israel is a racist endeavor” is anti-Semitic.  

 

From the comments. Trying to say there is one Jewish voice on this is just sophistry and politics. Again it's partisan politics.

Jewish groups also want the rules to be rejected.

urging “our governments, municipalities, universities and other institutions to reject the IHRA definition.” The definition, it says, is intentionally worded so that legitimate criticisms of Israel and advocacy for Palestinian rights can be equated with antisemitism “as a means to suppress the former.” By confusing the previously clear understanding of antisemitism as hostility towards Jews as Jews, this conflation manages simultaneously to undermine “both the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality and the global struggle against antisemitism”.

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/global-jewish-organizations-affirm-the-boycott-divestment-and-sanctions-movement/

Edited July 24, 2018 by phart

[Caledonian Craig]

I would say that it is the norm for this politically-correct age we live in. Say anything about any race, religion, sexual preference etc and it will be twisted into being anti-this or anti-that. It is the norm.

Basically, like plenty of other issues, Corbyn is just not cut out for leadership as he just does not lead. Behind him the Labour party are a disorganized rabble, he does not make his position clear on Brexit, he does not put the weak and bleeding opposition to the sword as any competent leader would and he just comes across as more of a political activist who wants to be more but will never get there to the standard required.

Just to add though I'd still take him over another few years of moronic May.

[Third Lanark]

On 7/23/2018 at 7:55 AM, ParisInAKilt said:

Corbyn doesn’t support the EU, how can he when his whole thing is anti austerity? Supporting the EU would be hypocritical . . . 

Corbyn has always been in a difficult position re the EU; a huge part of their vote was in favour of Brexit so hard to straddle both horses. The Eu is a capitalist organisation hence his long standing opposition. What was he meant to do - commit wholeheartedly to Remain and be accused of being a hypocrite. Bottom line: we're screwed with Brexit, we're screwed if we stay. 

[PapofGlencoe]

3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I would say that it is the norm for this politically-correct age we live in. Say anything about any race, religion, sexual preference etc and it will be twisted into being anti-this or anti-that. It is the norm.

Basically, like plenty of other issues, Corbyn is just not cut out for leadership as he just does not lead. Behind him the Labour party are a disorganized rabble, he does not make his position clear on Brexit, he does not put the weak and bleeding opposition to the sword as any competent leader would and he just comes across as more of a political activist who wants to be more but will never get there to the standard required.

Just to add though I'd still take him over another few years of moronic May.

he looked good in the election and then just seems to have fizzled away.  Weird.

[Clyde1998]

YouGov polling: http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/kgfdyeogty/SundayTimesResults_180720_for_web.pdf

Imagine there was a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union and this was the question, how would you vote: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

• Remain - 53% (73% in Scottish sub-sample)
• Leave - 47% (27% in Scottish sub-sample)

Imagine there was a three-way referendum on Brexit, with the options of Britain remaining in the European Union, leaving the European Union with the deal Theresa May has set out, or leaving the European Union without a deal. People would be able to vote for their first and second preference. Which would you vote for as your first preference?

• Remain a member of the European Union - 50% (73% in Scottish sub-sample)
• Leave the EU and accept the deal - 11% (7% in Scottish sub-sample)
• Leave the EU without a deal - 38% (20% in Scottish sub-sample)

Second preferences added

• Remain a member of the European Union - 54% (75% in Scottish sub-sample)
• Leave the EU without a deal - 46% (25% in Scottish sub-sample)

Margin of Error Range (Scottish sub-samples - base 155):

1. Remain 73% (66-80%); Leave 27% (20-34%)
2. Remain 73% (66-80%); Leave with deal (3-11%); Leave without deal 20% (14-26%)
3. Remain 75% (68-82%); Leave 25% (18-32%)

Clear movement in people's view on Brexit - the Scottish view couldn't be clearer.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Clyde1998

[aaid]

9 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

Corbyn has always been in a difficult position re the EU; a huge part of their vote was in favour of Brexit so hard to straddle both horses. The Eu is a capitalist organisation hence his long standing opposition. What was he meant to do - commit wholeheartedly to Remain and be accused of being a hypocrite. Bottom line: we're screwed with Brexit, we're screwed if we stay. 

I'd be prepared to accept a view like "the EU is a capitalist organisation" and Corbyn wanting to pursue a genuine Internationalist agenda if it wasn't for comments like today's dog whistle comments about immigrant workers keeping wages down.   While not being true, this plays into the hands of the far right.

When it comes down to it, Labour and the Trades Unions concern for workers stops at the borders of the U.K.  

Better Together, now, then and always.  

[exile]

11 hours ago, phart said:

 

From the comments. Trying to say there is one Jewish voice on this is just sophistry and politics. Again it's partisan politics.

Jewish groups also want the rules to be rejected.

urging “our governments, municipalities, universities and other institutions to reject the IHRA definition.” The definition, it says, is intentionally worded so that legitimate criticisms of Israel and advocacy for Palestinian rights can be equated with antisemitism “as a means to suppress the former.” By confusing the previously clear understanding of antisemitism as hostility towards Jews as Jews, this conflation manages simultaneously to undermine “both the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality and the global struggle against antisemitism”.

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/global-jewish-organizations-affirm-the-boycott-divestment-and-sanctions-movement/

Absolutely. This confirms my suspicion that it has become a factional turf war within Labour that has become a smear or stick with which to beat Corbyn, by the Tories and right wing press.

I think it's also something hard to defend against, a bit like some of the 'momentum thugs' accusations and 'intimidating nationalists'/'burly men' accusations. I'm not saying no one felt intimidated, but it becomes a story blown out of all proportion by one side, and often repeated unquestionaingly by otherwise trusted/ neutral media.   (no longer trusted/neutral!)

Edited July 24, 2018 by exile

[exile]

Anyway, back to Brexit - 

Some say Dominic Raab and DExEU have been downgraded

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-eu-talks-uk-lead-prime-minister-dominic-raab-michel-barnier-a8461776.html

others say not so

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/07/dominic-raab-theresa-may-brexit-take-over-dexeu-negotiations

[Dave78]

3 hours ago, aaid said:

I'd be prepared to accept a view like "the EU is a capitalist organisation" and Corbyn wanting to pursue a genuine Internationalist agenda if it wasn't for comments like today's dog whistle comments about immigrant workers keeping wages down.   While not being true, this plays into the hands of the far right.

I saw Sturgeon's tweet earlier along the same lines as your post. Then i watched Corbyn's speech which was linked in the replies. I'm pretty sure Nicola (and your good self) have gotten the wrong end of the stick here. He was lamenting the fact the UK has de-industrialised and become reliant on cheap imported goods. He wasn't referring to immigrants.

[aaid]

9 hours ago, Dave78 said:

I saw Sturgeon's tweet earlier along the same lines as your post. Then i watched Corbyn's speech which was linked in the replies. I'm pretty sure Nicola (and your good self) have gotten the wrong end of the stick here. He was lamenting the fact the UK has de-industrialised and become reliant on cheap imported goods. He wasn't referring to immigrants.

Perhaps but Corbyn has form where this is concerned.   This proposal isn't far from the protectionist guff that Trump is coming out with either. 

[Clyde1998]

Seems like the UK won't just be negotiating a trade deal with the EU, but also the WTO: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/experts-explanation-trading-wto-rules-means/

[Ally Bongo]

Michel Barnier has rejected Theresa May's Chequers plan for Brexit and made Dominic Raab look like a tit - even tho we all knew he was one

Popcorn time

[Clyde1998]

3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Michel Barnier has rejected Theresa May's Chequers plan for Brexit and made Dominic Raab look like a tit - even tho we all knew he was one

Popcorn time

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/44964521

'Michel Barnier said the UK wanted to "take back control" of its money, law and borders - but so did the EU.' 

[Orraloon]

On 7/24/2018 at 1:58 PM, PapofGlencoe said:

he looked good in the election and then just seems to have fizzled away.  Weird.

He is getting on a bit. He needs to pace himself.

[Ally Bongo]

I've noticed that the calls for a second referendum or "people's vote" seem to be gaining momentum and weirdly being pushed a bit by the MSM

This is something i thought wouldn't happen and i'm still not sure it will

The consequences of it for the political parties, whatever way you look are not good, and the worst case scenario is civil unrest

 

[ParisInAKilt]

3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

I've noticed that the calls for a second referendum or "people's vote" seem to be gaining momentum and weirdly being pushed a bit by the MSM

This is something i thought wouldn't happen and i'm still not sure it will

The consequences of it for the political parties, whatever way you look are not good, and the worst case scenario is civil unrest

 

The guardian’s opinions articles have mentioned it on and off for awhile now. Another vote wouldn’t be a massive surprise. People would still vote Tory after it. 

[Dave78]

The only way there'd be a 'people's vote' (very effective framing of a 2nd referendum BTW), would be if there was a snap general election and Labour promised it in their manifesto, which they then won.

They won't.

[Ally Bongo]

25 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

People would still vote Tory after it. 

Obviously - and Labour/LibDem/Greens too

However it's only a matter of time before the two main parties fracture (there is only a fag paper between the core of them) and we see the rise of something else IMO

UKIP or some other anti EU basterdisation could sweep up the leave vote

[ParisInAKilt]

43 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Obviously - and Labour/LibDem/Greens too

However it's only a matter of time before the two main parties fracture (there is only a fag paper between the core of them) and we see the rise of something else IMO

UKIP or some other anti EU basterdisation could sweep up the leave vote

Far from knowledgeable on this but with first past the post wouldn’t it be difficult for another party, established or not to win an election? Even after all this EU farce. 

Not voting would send more of a message than a so called protest vote. 

[Caledonian Craig]

As I understand it a second vote would not be welcomed by the EU. I am pretty sure the EU have said there is no way the vote can be over-turned.The decision has been made and much money has been spent on preparing for the UK's exit from the EU. 

[mariokempes56]

19 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

As I understand it a second vote would not be welcomed by the EU. I am pretty sure the EU have said there is no way the vote can be over-turned.The decision has been made and much money has been spent on preparing for the UK's exit from the EU. 

Have to agree. The EU have spent a fortune in time and cash to accommodate the UK. I'd imagine they'd tell them to shove another vote (it'd only delay the same for another 3/4 years).

I suspect either May gets some sort of shit deal, her party implodes then a GE . Then ? God knows.

[antidote]

Army put on standby to deliver essential goods for the vulnerable and no doubt the privileged tories. 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by antidote

[Bristolhibby]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

As I understand it a second vote would not be welcomed by the EU. I am pretty sure the EU have said there is no way the vote can be over-turned.The decision has been made and much money has been spent on preparing for the UK's exit from the EU. 

Pretty sure the EU have said the exact opposite. That it’s never too late. You aren’t out until you are out.

Just that there is no precedent. 

J

Edited July 29, 2018 by Bristolhibby

[Caledonian Craig]

51 minutes ago, Bristolhibby said:

Pretty sure the EU have said the exact opposite. That it’s never too late. You aren’t out until you are out.

Just that there is no precedent. 

J

I do recall them saying they don't interfere in a country's democratic process. Since the UK voted to leave the EU it will remain that way for them. 

Of course, I suppose, if a second referendum was to be had and a different result returned that would change things. However, I cannot see that happening. It would be too big a climbdown for the egotistical Tories.