Tower block on fire in London

[EddardStark]

There seems to be utter chaos on the ground to be honest. So many people wanting to do their bit to help. The support groups have already stated they don't need anymore donations of food etc as they have but people continue to bring it. And then the media interviewing many people with good intentions and pushing the good news story about how people muck in at times of crisis. However they need to be pushing the story of how London and other cities have seen the emergence of cramped ghettos, disgraceful practices by landlords and the total hypocrisy of many politicians locally and at Westminster who's statements over the last few days have been nauseating in terms of not recognizing cause and effect. Maybe we are realizing that rampant austerity/deregulation of planning regulations have a real cost in human lives. Too late for those people in the flats though.

[Govanhill Jacobite]

8 minutes ago, EddardStark said:

There seems to be utter chaos on the ground to be honest. So many people wanting to do their bit to help. The support groups have already stated they don't need anymore donations of food etc as they have but people continue to bring it. And then the media interviewing many people with good intentions and pushing the good news story about how people muck in at times of crisis. However they need to be pushing the story of how London and other cities have seen the emergence of cramped ghettos, disgraceful practices by landlords and the total hypocrisy of many politicians locally and at Westminster who's statements over the last few days have been nauseating in terms of not recognizing cause and effect. Maybe we are realizing that rampant austerity/deregulation of planning regulations have a real cost in human lives. Too late for those people in the flats though.

CRACKING POST

[Toepoke]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

When I was a kid I came very close to being involved in this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerland_disaster

We were on holiday in the Isle of Man at the time and were planning on going that night but because it was raining we went during the day instead. 

Jeez that seemed like a nightmare! I can't remember ever hearing about that incident, surprising given the death toll...

 

[Mark frae Crieff]

Radio Scotland this morning had an "expert" on who basically said that the regulations for the types of cladding used on buildings are that vague they seem to be more advisory than any defined regulations. 

If this is the case how many other blocks of flats or other buildings are in the same position? 

It has been mentioned that corporate manslaughter may be brought against contractors but should it not start at the top as it also seems that certain Government officials allegedly have been sitting on a report that was commissioned after a smaller similar fire in an adjoining tower block. 

[scoobydoo]

1 hour ago, EddardStark said:

 

I think it will all come out soon enough.

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Toepoke said:

Jeez that seemed like a nightmare! I can't remember ever hearing about that incident, surprising given the death toll...

 

Even though I was only eight at the time I've got pretty clear memories of it and it's always in my mind whenever anything like this happens.

I remember it taking a lot of time to let people know we were okay as the telephone network to and from the mainland collapsed.

[beardy]

3 hours ago, EddardStark said:

There seems to be utter chaos on the ground to be honest. So many people wanting to do their bit to help. The support groups have already stated they don't need anymore donations of food etc as they have but people continue to bring it. And then the media interviewing many people with good intentions and pushing the good news story about how people muck in at times of crisis. However they need to be pushing the story of how London and other cities have seen the emergence of cramped ghettos, disgraceful practices by landlords and the total hypocrisy of many politicians locally and at Westminster who's statements over the last few days have been nauseating in terms of not recognizing cause and effect. Maybe we are realizing that rampant austerity/deregulation of planning regulations have a real cost in human lives. Too late for those people in the flats though.

Outstanding post and the ultimate ignominy for the residents will be when it's rebuilt as luxury million pound apartments well beyond their reach. 

[mariokempes56]

4 hours ago, EddardStark said:

There seems to be utter chaos on the ground to be honest. So many people wanting to do their bit to help. The support groups have already stated they don't need anymore donations of food etc as they have but people continue to bring it. And then the media interviewing many people with good intentions and pushing the good news story about how people muck in at times of crisis. However they need to be pushing the story of how London and other cities have seen the emergence of cramped ghettos, disgraceful practices by landlords and the total hypocrisy of many politicians locally and at Westminster who's statements over the last few days have been nauseating in terms of not recognizing cause and effect. Maybe we are realizing that rampant austerity/deregulation of planning regulations have a real cost in human lives. Too late for those people in the flats though.

Spot on.

[Mox]

6 hours ago, EddardStark said:

There seems to be utter chaos on the ground to be honest. So many people wanting to do their bit to help. The support groups have already stated they don't need anymore donations of food etc as they have but people continue to bring it. And then the media interviewing many people with good intentions and pushing the good news story about how people muck in at times of crisis. However they need to be pushing the story of how London and other cities have seen the emergence of cramped ghettos, disgraceful practices by landlords and the total hypocrisy of many politicians locally and at Westminster who's statements over the last few days have been nauseating in terms of not recognizing cause and effect. Maybe we are realizing that rampant austerity/deregulation of planning regulations have a real cost in human lives. Too late for those people in the flats though.

Well said sir.

[Denny's Yard]

This is the stuff of nightmares, but a totally preventable tragedy.

Cormers were obviously cut when this building was refurbished.  Rather than cutting corners they should have been improving fire safety.  For example, an automatic sprinkler system would have been very expensive to retrofit but would have almost certainly saved every single life.  

People need to go jail for this.  And not just scapegoats, but the budget holders at the highest level.

[they've_been_suckered]

As much as it would be nice, who's going to jail and what for?

Id be amazed if people were convicted in relation to this. 

[Denny's Yard]

20 minutes ago, they've_been_suckered said:

As much as it would be nice, who's going to jail and what for?

Id be amazed if people were convicted in relation to this. 

Well, I should say subject to an investigation, if it is found out that safety has been compromised due to cuttting corners and not following the regulations.  Then it becomes corporate manslaughter and those responisble can go to jail.

There is precedent..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/yourbusiness/8330905/History-of-corporate-manslaughter-five-key-cases.html

 

 

[neilser]

11 hours ago, aaid said:

When I was a kid I came very close to being involved in this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerland_disaster

We were on holiday in the Isle of Man at the time and were planning on going that night but because it was raining we went during the day instead. 

David Lammy MP has drawn a direct comparison with Summerland: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/crime-grenfell-tower-burning-homes-police-fire

[wheres the pies]

Lilly Allen was getting interviewed the night on channel 4 news the night and said that she is hearing on the ground that up to 150 people could have died in this horrendous incident this could turn nasty against the authorities if that's the case 

[sbcmfc]

13 minutes ago, wheres the pies said:

Lilly Allen was getting interviewed the night on channel 4 news the night and said that she is hearing on the ground that up to 150 people could have died in this horrendous incident this could turn nasty against the authorities if that's the case 

Given the eye witness reports of several faces, many of children at windows on upper floors, this sadly wouldn't surprise me.

Those witness interviews would certainly lead you to believe there are many more than the 12? fatalities confirmed so far.

Watching the news last night was really saddening.

[they've_been_suckered]

2 hours ago, Denny's Yard said:

Well, I should say subject to an investigation, if it is found out that safety has been compromised due to cuttting corners and not following the regulations.  Then it becomes corporate manslaughter and those responisble can go to jail.

There is precedent..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/yourbusiness/8330905/History-of-corporate-manslaughter-five-key-cases.html

 

 

Believe it when I see it. Will be glad to be wrong obviously. 

[giblet]

1 hour ago, wheres the pies said:

Lilly Allen was getting interviewed the night on channel 4 news the night and said that she is hearing on the ground that up to 150 people could have died in this horrendous incident this could turn nasty against the authorities if that's the case 

saw that. not seeing the appeals for missing people that happened after the Mancbester bomb.

[wheres the pies]

Apparently a lot of old folk and disabled folk where put in the top floors by the council would have tought these poor tenants should have been given the lowest floors in that block heads will roll for sure so sad the poor souls 

[Stapes]

2 hours ago, wheres the pies said:

Lilly Allen was getting interviewed the night on channel 4 news the night and said that she is hearing on the ground that up to 150 people could have died in this horrendous incident this could turn nasty against the authorities if that's the case 

That would appear somewhat conservative imo. I would guess about 20 people living per floor, and it appears that virtually no-one above the 17th or 18th floors got out, while huge numbers below that level also perished. Terrible stuff. 

[Ally Bongo]

I dont know if there is some conspiracy to "micro manage" grief by the authorities to stave off anger 

I think it's maybe more down to respecting the relatives and friends of those missing and likely dead.

 

 

 

 

[aaid]

34 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

I dont know if there is some conspiracy to "micro manage" grief by the authorities to stave off anger 

I think it's maybe more down to respecting the relatives and friends of those missing and likely dead.

I doubt it's any conspiracy in the way you describe it.  

I suspect the Police and media are being careful not confirm numbers or names until they have positive identifications and an actual body count.  At this point, I'm sure they have a good idea of the actual scale and are managing expectations that there will be more fatalities.   If they make a mistake and release the name of someone as being killed and it turns out they've been in Tenerife for a fortnight they'd get absolutely slaughtered.  

 

[Ally Bongo]

17 minutes ago, aaid said:

I doubt it's any conspiracy in the way you describe it.  

I suspect the Police and media are being careful not confirm numbers or names until they have positive identifications and an actual body count.  At this point, I'm sure they have a good idea of the actual scale and are managing expectations that there will be more fatalities.   If they make a mistake and release the name of someone as being killed and it turns out they've been in Tenerife for a fortnight they'd get absolutely slaughtered.  

 

As Lily Allen described it ..

But yes - exactly my point

Anyone that was paying attention or wanted to really know the reality would have learned right away that the death toll was going to be high - even i said it and i know fook all !

Thats because my clock radio is tuned into Radio 4 and when the first reports were coming in it was pretty obvious from those interviewed that it was going to be a monumental tragedy 

They actually overplayed it and said that 2000 people had been made homeless giving the impression that was the population of the block when they were actually including those from the surrounding area

Edited June 15, 2017 by Ally Bongo

[kumnio]

Story in The Times tomorrow says the "fire resistant" panels cost £24. The flammable £22. Making the building non-flammable would have cost £5K more.

 

[scoobydoo]

I followed a lass to london many years ago and she ended up in one of those towers near the westway. It was a 3 bedroom flat and had about 8 people living in it and a few druggie blow-ins now and then. The toll could be very high.

[scoobydoo]

53 minutes ago, kumnio said:

Story in The Times tomorrow says the "fire resistant" panels cost £24. The flammable £22. Making the building non-flammable would have cost £5K more.

 

You see this type of cost cutting going on with almost every job now. Makes arse-lickers look good to their bosses at the savings they've made.